From ak at navel.gr  Fri Apr  1 08:29:54 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:29:54 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] MS Sql Server adapter
Message-ID: <424D4CD2.6080406@navel.gr>

Hello all,

I started creating the SQL Server adapter for OG. Apparently it's almost 
done - at least it passes successfuly all the test cases. I have sent it 
to George who will (hopefully ;-) include it in the next version of og.

Let me note some issues I run into while making the adapter:

- I had to name it SqlserverAdapter, not SqlServerAdapter, due to
og\adapter.rb:43: eval %{ return #{name.capitalize}Adapter.instance }

- It was hard to track down some error messages from the ms sql driver.
It would be much better if we use eval <<-EOE, __FILE__, __LINE__ ... 
instead of eval %{ }

- Another issue that made debugging difficult is the use of *ensure* at 
the end of some functions, without a previous *rescue*. Apparently, 
should an exception was risen in the function body, no error message was 
reported!

- @typecast is probably not needed in the adapter class

- It would be nice if we used a globally unique identifier for all 
objects in the database, so that we could do an og.get(123). Then again 
this could be difficult to implement...

- we should re-write the adapters, combining multiple sql statements in 
one using the *;* separator when this is possible.

- we should definately use transactions in more places

- the *store* attribute could be renamed to db_handle


BTW, it was really nice having the chance to work again on the og/nitro 
code and check out how much it has improved since the last time (almost 
6 months ago). I'm pretty sure that this is due to the ruby community 
and that this is just the beginning!

Regards,
Tasos


-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro


From james_b at neurogami.com  Sat Apr  2 23:54:37 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:54:37 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Placing tempaltes and includes outside of 'public' directory
Message-ID: <424F770D.4030107@neurogami.com>

Is there some what to have a template file under /public, and have it 
include another file in a sibling directory?

I have this directory tree

/conf
/public
/log
/templates

my index.xhtml  file has

    <render href="/templates/header" />

so it can slurp in header.xhtml

but it fails.

I've also tried

    <render href="templates/header" />

My run.rb (this is running under WEBrick)  has

N::Runner.run( :host => '127.0.0.1',
                :port => 9999 ,
                :template_root => 'templates',
                :name => "Tagegory"
               )

which I though would tell Nitro to look in templates/ for files.

On a related issue, if I simply put the header file in the same dir as 
index.xhtml, and use

    <render href="header" />

then it works.  If I try to put the header file is a subdirectory of 
public, and use this

    <render href="/common/header" />

I get errors about no such action.



Thanks,

James
-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 04:29:38 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:29:38 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Placing tempaltes and includes outside of 'public'
	directory
In-Reply-To: <424F770D.4030107@neurogami.com>
References: <424F770D.4030107@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050403002916309468@mail.gmail.com>

Hello

> Is there some what to have a template file under /public, and have it
> include another file in a sibling directory?
> 
> I have this directory tree
> ...
>     <render href="/templates/header" />

in 0.14.0 you can do:

class MyController < Controller
  @template_root = 'templates'

  ...
end

then in your html:

<render href="header" />

But I 'll change this so that your version works too. Please be patient.

> N::Runner.run( :host => '127.0.0.1',
>                 :port => 9999 ,
>                 :template_root => 'templates',
>                 :name => "Tagegory"
>                )

If you set the templates root then you should just:

<render href="header" />

> On a related issue, if I simply put the header file in the same dir as
> index.xhtml, and use
> ...
>     <render href="/common/header" />

As I said, will fix ASAP.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 17:05:36 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:05:36 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Placing tempaltes and includes outside of 'public'
	directory
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050403002916309468@mail.gmail.com>
References: <424F770D.4030107@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b54050403002916309468@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050403140566df47cc@mail.gmail.com>

Fixed it, now you can render from subdirs.
Will be available in the next version.

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Sat Apr  2 05:52:24 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:52:24 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] Hello Everyone...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1112438290.22163.nitro-general@rubyforge.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504021348420.26892-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

After a lot of thought, deep consideration, and a lot of research on the
topic, I decided to stop the developing of my web app on *r*l* (I promised
a friend I will never use the "r" word again, ..., anyway... , and join
the world of Nitro.

Anyway, ... I would like to say hello to everyone... :-)

Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 05:21:04 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:21:04 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [ANN] Nitro + Og 0.15.0
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040402216f6603c3@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

new versions of Nitro and Og were just released.

Homepage + Downloads: http://nitro.rubyforge.org

A great release. Many cool new features and tons of subtle
improvements. We also welcome a new core developer, Anastastios
Koutoumanos, who's first contribution is the new SqlServer adapter.

Most notable additions:

* Advanced localization support:

  locale_en = {
    'See you' => 'See you',
    :long_paragraph => 'The best new books, up to 30% reduced price',
    :price => 'Price: %d %s',
    :proc_price => proc { |value, cur| "Price: #{value} #{cur}" }
  }

  locale_de = {
    'See you' => 'Auf wieder sehen',
    ...
  }

  lc = Localization.get
  lc['See you'] -> See you
  lc[:price, 100, 'euro'] -> Price: 100 euro
  lc = Localization.get[:de]
  lc['See you'] -> Auf wiedersehen

  Using the LocalizationShader you can have templates like this:

  <h1>[[This is a localized]] String</h1>
  <p>
     do you [[:like]] this?
  </p>

  All strings enclosed in [[ ]] are replaced with localized
  versions (honouring the session locale). Localization rules can also
  be provided with a .yml file. Check out the updated blog example.

* Dynamic/Parametrised mixins. A great extension to Ruby's mixin
  feature. The Og::list implementation is replaced with the new
  Orderable dynamic mixin, here is an example:

  class Comment
    property :body, String
    belongs_to :article, Article
    include Orderable, :scope => article
  end

  c.move_higher

  The Orderable mixin uses the :scope parameter to dynamically alter
  the methods appended to the Comment class. This new feature will be
  used throughout the platform.

* NestedSets mixin:

  class Comment
    include NestedSets
  end

  or

  class Comment
    include Hierarchical, :method => :nested_sets
  end

  c.add_comment(child_comment)
  c.full_children
  c.direct_children
  c.children

  this is a reimplementation of the SqlTraversable mixin
  available in older versions.

* Improved templating system. Now allows <% %> intrerpolators
  and provides a number of html morphing effects:

  <div if="admin">
    admin interface
  </div>

  <ul>
    <li each="u in @users">#{u.first_name} #{u.last_name}
  </ul>

  and more...

* Og provides an SqlServer adapter out of the box.

* Improved scaffolding code (still a lot more to come).

* Build default environment, introduced nitro and nitrogen
  commands to help new users.

* Many, many small improvements and fixes. 

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From james_b at neurogami.com  Mon Apr  4 23:32:00 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:32:00 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Tempalte hack and feature requet
Message-ID: <425206B0.6000009@neurogami.com>

I was wondering about doing a conditional  header include, so that each 
page in a Web site can have a common set of links , but not link back to 
itself.


Here's a simple example, where the index page doesn't need a link to 
itself.

# file header.xhtml -----

   <?r
     today = Time.now.strftime( "%A, %d %B, %Y")
     links = "<a href='/'>My Blog</a>"
     links  = "My Blog"  if caller[6] =~ /index/
   ?>
   <div id='header'>
     <h1>#{links}</h1><h3>Today is #{today}</h3>
   </div>

# end file  -----

This gets included into index.xhtml, and other pages, and manages to 
detect the calling xhtml page.  But it feels hackish, and wonder if 
there was, or could  be, a cleaner way for one file to know what parent 
page was including it.

Thanks,

James

-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From ak at navel.gr  Tue Apr  5 03:22:07 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:22:07 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Hello Everyone...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504021348420.26892-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504021348420.26892-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <42523C9F.4060308@navel.gr>

Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:
> After a lot of thought, deep consideration, and a lot of research on the
> topic, I decided to stop the developing of my web app on *r*l* (I promised
> a friend I will never use the "r" word again, ..., anyway... , and join
> the world of Nitro.
> 
> Anyway, ... I would like to say hello to everyone... :-)
> 
> Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
> {To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
>  To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general

Hello Emmanouil!

Nice to have you on board ;-)

Now, could you explain this? Your name and email address seem Greek (to 
me...) but a little trace (sorry, couldn't resist!) leads to Tokyo, 
Japan! So where are you located, what are you working on? Are you in any 
way related to Matz!??!!

enJOY!

Tasos Koutoumanos

-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 04:29:17 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:29:17 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Tempalte hack and feature requet
In-Reply-To: <425206B0.6000009@neurogami.com>
References: <425206B0.6000009@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040501298fe65e9@mail.gmail.com>

> I was wondering about doing a conditional  header include, so that each
> ...
> there was, or could  be, a cleaner way for one file to know what parent
> page was including it.

Hmm another nice suggestion. Will add this asap along with your other
suggestions, and send you an updated gem. Please be patient till
tomorrow though.

best regards,
George.



-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From ak at navel.gr  Tue Apr  5 04:38:29 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:38:29 +0300
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Nitro] Tempalte hack and feature requet]
Message-ID: <42524E85.7000503@navel.gr>


-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro

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From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 10:21:43 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:21:43 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
Message-ID: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>

I planning some changes for the next version, and I would like your opinion:

- change Nitro namespace from N to Nitro (to follow the ruby way)
- change Glue namespace from N to Glue (to follow the ruby way)

The Nitro namespace will by default include the Glue/Og namespaces.

The .xhtml extension will be changed to .rx (ruby xml/xhtml) or .sx
(server xml/xhtml)
Which one do you prefer?

I 'll also add an .rxi or .sxi extension for includable templates.
Those templates will not be allowed to be accessed as top level
templates (for extra security).

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From mneumann at ntecs.de  Tue Apr  5 10:35:50 2005
From: mneumann at ntecs.de (Michael Neumann)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:35:50 +0200
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200504051635.50955.mneumann@ntecs.de>

Am Dienstag 05 April 2005 16:21 schrieb George Moschovitis:
> I planning some changes for the next version, and I would like your
> opinion:
>
> - change Nitro namespace from N to Nitro (to follow the ruby way)
> - change Glue namespace from N to Glue (to follow the ruby way)

Good idea!

> The Nitro namespace will by default include the Glue/Og namespaces.
>
> The .xhtml extension will be changed to .rx (ruby xml/xhtml) or .sx
> (server xml/xhtml)
> Which one do you prefer?

I'd prefer .rx (or .rxml).

Regards,

  Michael


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 10:50:16 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:50:16 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <200504051635.50955.mneumann@ntecs.de>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<200504051635.50955.mneumann@ntecs.de>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040507506f9a7443@mail.gmail.com>

> Good idea!

One reason for this change is to make Og more compatible with Wee :)
It would not be nice to include the N namespace in wee applications.
Glue is more neutral. The main reason is to make using other Ruby
projects with Nitro feel more natural.

> I'd prefer .rx (or .rxml).

ok, other opinions?

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From ak at navel.gr  Tue Apr  5 12:24:02 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Tue,  5 Apr 2005 19:24:02 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050405192402.u821qtldqi9a88os@atlas.navel.gr>


> I planning some changes for the next version, and I would like your opinion:
>
> - change Nitro namespace from N to Nitro (to follow the ruby way)
> - change Glue namespace from N to Glue (to follow the ruby way)

super!
>
> The Nitro namespace will by default include the Glue/Og namespaces.
>
> The .xhtml extension will be changed to .rx (ruby xml/xhtml) or .sx
> (server xml/xhtml)
> Which one do you prefer?

I prefer the xhtml extension - if you must change it though, I prefer
.sx

.rx reminds me or rexx, some bike models, and is more commonly used
than sx (check out
http://filext.com/detaillist.php?extdetail=rx&Submit3=Go%21)


>
> I 'll also add an .rxi or .sxi extension for includable templates.
> Those templates will not be allowed to be accessed as top level
> templates (for extra security).

Nice idea!

Tasos

>
> regards,
> George.
>
>
> --
> http://nitro.rubyforge.org
> http://www.joy.gr
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>


----- End message from george.moschovitis at gmail.com -----





From mneumann at ntecs.de  Tue Apr  5 13:59:53 2005
From: mneumann at ntecs.de (Michael Neumann)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:59:53 +0200
Subject: [Nitro] Hello Everyone...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504021348420.26892-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504021348420.26892-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <200504051959.53604.mneumann@ntecs.de>

Hi,

Am Samstag 02 April 2005 12:52 schrieb Emmanuel Piperakis:
> After a lot of thought, deep consideration, and a lot of research on the
> topic, I decided to stop the developing of my web app on *r*l* (I promised
> a friend I will never use the "r" word again, ..., anyway... , and join
> the world of Nitro.

What were the reasons for leaving *r*l* ?
Just curious.

Regards,

  Michael


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 15:52:18 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:52:18 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <4252BE55.7080208@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4252BE55.7080208@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040512523960ea30@mail.gmail.com>

> 1. I tend to be against any names that presume to be Ruby-standard
> rather than app-standard or neutral.  So, either .sx or .nx (for Nitro XML)

i agree, I like .sx more 
 
> I like the idea of using spec-compliant templates, as it opens the door
> for validation the templates both before and after rendering.  it also
>
> You would end up with something like this:
> 
> <html xmlns:n="http://nitro.rubyforge.org/2005/nitro"
>        xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
>   <head>
>     <n:render href='meta'/>
>   </head>
>   <body>
>    <n:render href='menu' />

>> example, if my template is not well-formed XML, does anything in Nitro
> break?

at the moment only if you use XSLT stylesheets (the parser expects a
valid xml file).

> .sxi is an extension used by OpenOffice Impress.

thanks for pointing this out.

> What difference does the extension name have on processing?  For
> example, if a template (foo.sx) references another file, bar.sx, does it
> handle it differently if the file were named bar.rxi or bar.txt?
> ... 
> Do you mean they cannot live under public/ ?

no i mean you can ONLY include .sxi templates in .sx templates. Ie if
you have a file named myaction.sxi you cannot acces it with
http://www.mysite.com/myaction. Only files with .sx extension will be
allowed by the dispatcher. .sxi files will be only included.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr  5 16:33:26 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:33:26 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405040512523960ea30@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4252BE55.7080208@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405040512523960ea30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4252F616.7090701@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
...

>>>example, if my template is not well-formed XML, does anything in Nitro
>>
>>break?
> 
> 
> at the moment only if you use XSLT stylesheets (the parser expects a
> valid xml file).

I see.  Haven't tried that yet.

 > ...
> no i mean you can ONLY include .sxi templates in .sx templates. Ie if
> you have a file named myaction.sxi you cannot acces it with
> http://www.mysite.com/myaction. Only files with .sx extension will be
> allowed by the dispatcher. .sxi files will be only included.

Oh, nice.

Thanks,

James



From dan at zeraweb.com  Tue Apr  5 16:37:41 2005
From: dan at zeraweb.com (Dan Yoder)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:37:41 -0500
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2380d9e6de9158ac8b06cf133a39f5b3@zeraweb.com>

My two cents inline below ...

On Apr 5, 2005, at 9:21 AM, George Moschovitis wrote:

> - change Nitro namespace from N to Nitro (to follow the ruby way)
> - change Glue namespace from N to Glue (to follow the ruby way)
>
> The Nitro namespace will by default include the Glue/Og namespaces.

this is all goodness, but i have one comment. is it possible (and i 
think it is, i just don't recall quite how) to alias the namespaces to 
N, G, and O? then you could have something like Include 
NitroShortNamespaces or something. after all, nitro is a fairly 
significant framework, and it *is* kind of nice to be able to say 
N::FooBar. it isn't like this is a little utility or something ... =)

> The .xhtml extension will be changed to .rx (ruby xml/xhtml) or .sx
> (server xml/xhtml)
> Which one do you prefer?

i am all for sx and sxi (or, if that is used, isx). for one thing, 
there is no reason the templating needs to be tightly coupled to ruby. 
sure, if you embed code, it will be ruby code, but that could vary with 
the platform. in addition, embedded ruby solutions (like JRuby) could 
still use it anyway, even though the apps are not ruby apps. i think it 
is more important to shoot for a good templating solution, and the 
ruby-ness of it is secondary. the reality is that we have to take it 
one step at a time, but to the extent that the naming should reflect 
the underlying philosophy behind the design, i would say sx. plus, it's 
just SeXier.

> I 'll also add an .rxi or .sxi extension for includable templates.
> Those templates will not be allowed to be accessed as top level
> templates (for extra security).

this is a very good idea.

~dan



From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr  5 16:52:15 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:52:15 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
Message-ID: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>

I'm slowly building up a Nitro tutorial.  It starts from the 
snake-simple, gradually adding in more Nitro features.  The premise is 
that one can start with mocked-out plain HTML, add in some templating, 
then actual Ruby code, and gradually get more complex, all based on the 
actual needs of the application.  There is no de facto presumption of a 
database (or any storage, for that matter) until such time that a need 
is demonstrated.

I've yet to get to any mention of Og, but I started thinking about how 
one might ease into the use of a database, and figured that the file 
system would make the best first choice.  I see there is a 
FilesysAdapter class, which is sweet.  But the comments say it is "proof 
of concept and at the moment severely limited."

What's missing or broken?  And what's the forecast?

Has anyone used this and can comment on it?

Thanks,


James

-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr  5 16:52:32 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:52:32 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
Message-ID: <4252FA90.6000909@neurogami.com>

I'm slowly building up a Nitro tutorial.  It starts from the 
snake-simple, gradually adding in more Nitro features.  The premise is 
that one can start with mocked-out plain HTML, add in some templating, 
then actual Ruby code, and gradually get more complex, all based on the 
actual needs of the application.  There is no de facto presumption of a 
database (or any storage, for that matter) until such time that a need 
is demonstrated.

I've yet to get to any mention of Og, but I started thinking about how 
one might ease into the use of a database, and figured that the file 
system would make the best first choice.  I see there is a 
FilesysAdapter class, which is sweet.  But the comments say it is "proof 
of concept and at the moment severely limited."

What's missing or broken?  And what's the forecast?

Has anyone used this and can comment on it?

Thanks,


James

-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From dan at zeraweb.com  Tue Apr  5 17:08:05 2005
From: dan at zeraweb.com (Dan Yoder)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:08:05 -0500
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
References: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>

I would like to stress how badly needed this kind of documentation is 
... i realize, of course, that i am stating the obvious, and the 
equally obvious response is to do like james and write some of it. 
unfortunately, i don't have the time (at least right now) to do this, 
and the lack of documentation is making it difficult to make progress 
with nitro.

so what i am wondering is where is this on the agenda? what is the 
estimated time frame for this? are there other folks working actively 
on documentation? is there a to do list?

again, please understand this is in NO WAY meant to slam the current 
effort. g & co are doing great work moving this forward and it is great 
to see the activity on the list picking up. i am just asking the 
questions to try and better understand where we are at. =)

~dan

p.s. one thought i have is a similar tutorial in the spirit of what 
james is doing, but converting a rails app to nitro. this could also 
address why you might want to do such a thing. =) i could potentially 
write or contribute to this, since that is a big part of my struggle.

p.p.s. another rails-related thought: i think a lot of the 
documentation for rails is actually pretty weak. there is plenty of it, 
but some of it is badly out of date and there are a lot of really basic 
kinds of things that are not addressed well. i think a really strong 
set of tutorials and cookbooks could really help nitro's adoption.


On Apr 5, 2005, at 3:52 PM, James Britt wrote:

> I'm slowly building up a Nitro tutorial.  It starts from the 
> snake-simple, gradually adding in more Nitro features.  The premise is 
> that one can start with mocked-out plain HTML, add in some templating, 
> then actual Ruby code, and gradually get more complex, all based on 
> the actual needs of the application.  There is no de facto presumption 
> of a database (or any storage, for that matter) until such time that a 
> need is demonstrated.
>
> I've yet to get to any mention of Og, but I started thinking about how 
> one might ease into the use of a database, and figured that the file 
> system would make the best first choice.  I see there is a 
> FilesysAdapter class, which is sweet.  But the comments say it is 
> "proof of concept and at the moment severely limited."
>
> What's missing or broken?  And what's the forecast?
>
> Has anyone used this and can comment on it?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> James
>
> -- 
>
> http://www.ruby-doc.org
> http://www.rubyxml.com
> http://catapult.rubyforge.com
> http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
> http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
> http://www.jamesbritt.com
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general



From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr  5 17:56:27 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:56:27 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
References: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
	<e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
Message-ID: <4253098B.9090404@neurogami.com>

Dan Yoder wrote:
 > I would like to stress how badly needed this kind of documentation is
 > ... i realize, of course, that i am stating the obvious, and the equally
 > obvious response is to do like james and write some of it.
 > unfortunately, i don't have the time (at least right now) to do this,
 > and the lack of documentation is making it difficult to make progress
 > with nitro.

Truth is, I started writing the tutorial to help me use Nitro.  Writing 
helps me think; if you want to know want you really think or know about 
something, try writing it down.

 >
 > so what i am wondering is where is this on the agenda? what is the
 > estimated time frame for this? are there other folks working actively on
 > documentation? is there a to do list?

I'm getting close to sending something off to George.  It does not cover 
all aspects of Nitro; I don't even know what that would entail.  The 
goals of the tutorial are to encourage use of Nitro, and demonstrate a 
methodology of design and development facilitated by Nitro.

I decided to send time with Nitro for variety of reasons: curiosity; 
disgust with the prevalent "Mine's bigger" pissing contest driven by 
many in the Rails community (and little apparent interest from anyone in 
toning it down or reigning it in); a suspicion that Nitro did in fact 
offer a valuable alternative to Rails.

Hopefully, my doc will clarify that last point.  Rails has some great 
features, stuff worth stealing to be sure.  But it presumes an awful lot 
about your application design process and architecture.  I might very 
well be wrong; Rails is remarkably complex, so for all I know it has a 
way to do everything I see in Nitro, but so far I haven't found it.



 >
 > again, please understand this is in NO WAY meant to slam the current
 > effort. g & co are doing great work moving this forward and it is great
 > to see the activity on the list picking up. i am just asking the
 > questions to try and better understand where we are at. =)

Lots to do.  We have the mixed blessing of working with a framework 
still in progress.  The nice thing is that there is time to change 
things before they get to entrenched.

For those playing along at home, here are some possible ways to contribute:

* Post to the list when you find something unclear or unintuitive. 
Sometimes simply changing the name of something can be a big step, but 
users need to speak up

* Write docs for methods you understand.  If you look at the rdoc for 
Nitro you find very few comments.  The method names aren't, to me, 
immediately self-explanatory.  If you've used something and think you've 
gained some insight, offer up an rdoc comment for the method.

* Write simple examples that highlight one or two features.

 >
 > ~dan
 >
 > p.s. one thought i have is a similar tutorial in the spirit of what
 > james is doing, but converting a rails app to nitro. this could also
 > address why you might want to do such a thing. =) i could potentially
 > write or contribute to this, since that is a big part of my struggle.

Sound nice.  BTW, I really hope not to see any (well, too much) Rails 
sniping here.  I've used it, I've made money off it, there are many 
good, smart people working on it.  But it may not be suited for all 
cases, and people should have and understand the alternatives.  It would 
be nice if you wrote up some guidelines or lessons learned from Rails 
porting.

 >
 > p.p.s. another rails-related thought: i think a lot of the documentation
 > for rails is actually pretty weak. there is plenty of it, but some of it
 > is badly out of date and there are a lot of really basic kinds of things
 > that are not addressed well. i think a really strong set of tutorials
 > and cookbooks could really help nitro's adoption.

Docs is hard!  Especially as things change.  Nitro docs I wrote this 
morning are out of date.  Code samples really help.  Here's a thought: 
Is there am automated  tool that lets you store a set of code samples, 
unit test them, then publish them as HTML, with annotation indicating if 
a sample failed any tests?  As Nitro/Og progresses, the cookbook would 
be run against the latest versions, and any out-of-date samples flagged. 
  I hate copying code, trying out, having it fail, only to learn that it 
will never work with the current version.

On a related note, my tutorial has, so far, made no mention of unit 
testing.  I'm planning on suggesting that code of any complexity should 
  be encapsulated into clearly defined classes that are easy to test 
independent of the Nitro environment; you shouldn't have to run a server 
to test the code.  Any thoughts on Nitro/Og unit testing?

James


From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr  5 19:50:30 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:50:30 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
References: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
	<e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
Message-ID: <42532446.6090604@neurogami.com>

Dan Yoder wrote:
> I would like to stress how badly needed this kind of documentation is 
> ... i realize, of course, that i am stating the obvious, and the equally 
> obvious response is to do like james and write some of it. 
> unfortunately, i don't have the time (at least right now) to do this, 
> and the lack of documentation is making it difficult to make progress 
> with nitro.

Truth is, I started writing the tutorial to help me use Nitro.  Writing
helps me think; if you want to know want you really think or know about
something, try writing it down.

> 
> so what i am wondering is where is this on the agenda? what is the 
> estimated time frame for this? are there other folks working actively on 
> documentation? is there a to do list?

I'm getting close to sending something off to George.  It does not cover
all aspects of Nitro; I don't even know what that would entail.  The
goals of the tutorial are to encourage use of Nitro, and demonstrate a
methodology of design and development facilitated by Nitro.

Essentially, I had no good idea of where to start with Nitro.  The 
tutorial fixes that.

I decided to send time with Nitro for variety of reasons: curiosity;
disgust with the prevalent "Mine's bigger" pissing contest driven by
many in the Rails community (and little apparent interest from anyone in
toning it down or reigning it in); a suspicion that Nitro did in fact
offer a valuable alternative to Rails.

Hopefully, my doc will clarify that last point.  Rails has some great
features, stuff worth stealing to be sure.  But it presumes an awful lot
about your application design process and architecture.  I might very
well be wrong; Rails is complex, so for all I know it has a
way to do everything I see in Nitro, but so far I haven't found it.


> 
> again, please understand this is in NO WAY meant to slam the current 
> effort. g & co are doing great work moving this forward and it is great 
> to see the activity on the list picking up. i am just asking the 
> questions to try and better understand where we are at. =)

Lots to do.  We have the mixed blessing of working with a framework
still in progress.  The nice thing is that there is time to change
things before they get to entrenched.

For those playing along at home, here are some possible ways to contribute:

* Post to the list when you find something unclear or unintuitive.
Sometimes simply changing the name of something can be a big step, but
users need to speak up.

* Write docs for methods you understand.  If you look at the rdoc for
Nitro you find very few comments.  The method names aren't, to me,
immediately self-explanatory.  If you've used something and think you've
gained some insight, offer up an rdoc comment for the method.

* Write simple examples that highlight one or two features.  For 
example, my tutorial shows conditional render of a common header file by 
using the new @parent_action_name.  Nothing earth-shattering, but simple 
and useful, both for accomplishing a task and demonstrating syntax.

> 
> ~dan
> 
> p.s. one thought i have is a similar tutorial in the spirit of what 
> james is doing, but converting a rails app to nitro. this could also 
> address why you might want to do such a thing. =) i could potentially 
> write or contribute to this, since that is a big part of my struggle.

Sound nice.  BTW, I really hope not to see any (well, too much) Rails
sniping here.  I've used it, I've made money off it, there are many
good, smart people working on it.  But it may not be suited for all
cases, and people should have, and understand, alternatives.  It would
be nice if you wrote up some guidelines or lessons learned from Rails
porting.

> 
> p.p.s. another rails-related thought: i think a lot of the documentation 
> for rails is actually pretty weak. there is plenty of it, but some of it 
> is badly out of date and there are a lot of really basic kinds of things 
> that are not addressed well. i think a really strong set of tutorials 
> and cookbooks could really help nitro's adoption.

Docs is hard!  Especially as things change.  The Nitro docs I wrote this
morning are out of date.  Code samples really help.

Here's a thought:
Is there am automated tool that lets you store a set of code samples,
unit test them, then publish them as HTML, with annotation indicating if
a code sample failed any tests?  As Nitro/Og progresses, the cookbook 
would be run against the latest versions, and any out-of-date samples 
flagged.  I hate copying code, trying out, having it fail, only to learn 
that it will never work with the current version.

On a related note, my tutorial has, so far, made no mention of unit
testing.  I'm planning on suggesting that code of any complexity should
  be encapsulated into clearly defined classes that are easy to test
independent of the Nitro environment; you shouldn't have to run a server
to test the code.  Any thoughts on Nitro/Og unit testing?

James



From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Tue Apr  5 22:45:08 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:45:08 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] To Nitro In Vitro!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504060523300.9849-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

To answer to all the posed questions, and enlight the situation I would
have to say:
1) Tasos: I am Greek ;-) but located in Japan/Tokyo. Except for my current
University research topics I am also working for a real estate consulting
company for which I am building a Online Reporting System.

2) Michael: For the beforementioned System, r*i*s has proven inadequate in
many ways. Yet I am not a person who looks down on other peoples work, and
this in not a *a*l* list so, no comments here.

3) George: I can not help it and get reminded of SEX with .sx !
Therefore... good choice! (GUDOCHO as we say here in Tokyo = latest slang
meaning Good Choice!!!)

4) James: I am also working on a small tutorial. My approach is kind of
different. Let me explain: not all of us are HTML/XML/XSL/WEB/RUBY gurus.
Some common mortals from other fields of science feel the need (the need
for speed! => Nitro) to "blog" their way into the web. Sometimes simple
apps, sometimes complicated reporting systems, force us to develop an
publish online. In that case, personaly, and I believe I speak for most
research/developers (or light-developers as I like calling us), we need a
tool that help us put our app online.

Nitro is THE tool. Why? Because it has not a restricted mentality of use:
"No, I do not need to post messages, and make mailing lists!"

But, I also do not want to spend weeks on XML/HTML/RUBY...(the list goes
on and on).

So, (finally a conclussion ..), with Georges' help, I will try to write
the Dummys' Tutorial to Nitro, for people who want to spend time on
nothing but their app.

My time is also limited, but by combining a long list of Q&As the tutorial
will soon come to life (soon => 1 or 2 months).

In G. we trust! ;-)

Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 02:25:52 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:25:52 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] What do you think.
In-Reply-To: <2380d9e6de9158ac8b06cf133a39f5b3@zeraweb.com>
References: <afd80b540504050721745fa3f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<2380d9e6de9158ac8b06cf133a39f5b3@zeraweb.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040523253391e1e8@mail.gmail.com>

> this is all goodness, but i have one comment. is it possible (and i
> think it is, i just don't recall quite how) to alias the namespaces to
> N, G, and O? then you could have something like Include
> NitroShortNamespaces or something. after all, nitro is a fairly
> significant framework, and it *is* kind of nice to be able to say
> N::FooBar. it isn't like this is a little utility or something ... =)

As you can see in the source code, Nitro promotes the usage of
FooBar instead of N::FooBar. So there will be no change. Og and Glue
will be inteligently included in Nitro so that you can always write
FooBar instead of Og::FooBar or Glue::FooBar.

Btw, I dont know how to alias Nitro, Og, Glue etc... to N, O, G If you
have any idea, tell me :)

> > one step at a time, but to the extent that the naming should reflect
> the underlying philosophy behind the design, i would say sx. plus, it's
> just SeXier.

Yeah, this is the extension of our current framework (netrino) and it
is pronnounced .SeX pages :)

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 02:32:28 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:32:28 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
References: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504052332498b9f07@mail.gmail.com>

> What's missing or broken?  And what's the forecast?

I plan to finish this adapter. In short, it works like this: Classes are mapped
to directories and Objects (instances) are mapped to files. At the
moment you can't do much querying. But I may be able to fix something
when I find some time. However, everyone is invited to have a look at
the current code and finish this.

But I plan to do some refactoring in the Og (and Nitro) code. I want
to make the code cleaner and easier to work with, understand and
adapt. So if you see that something could be better implemented with
Og (for example a place where eval is not necessary, duplication of
code, etc) please let me know.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 02:38:20 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:38:20 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
References: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
	<e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040523387cd371b5@mail.gmail.com>

> so what i am wondering is where is this on the agenda? what is the
> estimated time frame for this? are there other folks working actively
> on documentation? is there a to do list?

Of course this is on the agenda. I plan to do some refactoring on the
code for 0.16.0 and then try to write some documentation for 0.17.0
Hopefully James will finish his tutorial earlier though. I also plan
to make some videos (but first I need to implement some more stuff in
the scaffolder). But you understand that any help on this matter is
greatly appreciated. Firstly I don't have much time either (and Nitro
takes almost all of my free time). And Secondly I am not a native
speaker either :(

> address why you might want to do such a thing. =) i could potentially
> write or contribute to this, since that is a big part of my struggle.

Please, If you can do this this would be great. I doesn't have to be a
long text, It could be just a Blog entry.

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 02:43:06 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:43:06 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <4253098B.9090404@neurogami.com>
References: <4252FA7F.5080004@neurogami.com>
	<e5bbb95c997929ca21a44c719d46877e@zeraweb.com>
	<4253098B.9090404@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504052343519ba92d@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm getting close to sending something off to George.  It does not cover
> all aspects of Nitro; I don't even know what that would entail.  The
> goals of the tutorial are to encourage use of Nitro, and demonstrate a
> methodology of design and development facilitated by Nitro.

Great, thanks a lot.

> Lots to do.  We have the mixed blessing of working with a framework
> still in progress.  The nice thing is that there is time to change
> things before they get to entrenched.

Yeap, I think this is the number one reason to investigate Nitro at this moment.

> * Post to the list when you find something unclear or unintuitive.
> Sometimes simply changing the name of something can be a big step, but
> users need to speak up

This is very important.
 

> Sound nice.  BTW, I really hope not to see any (well, too much) Rails
> sniping here.  I've used it, I've made money off it, there are many

Of course not, we are all Ruby enthusiasts. We are coopetitors not competitors.
 
> Docs is hard!  Especially as things change.  Nitro docs I wrote this
> ..
>   I hate copying code, trying out, having it fail, only to learn that it
> will never work with the current version.

great idea.

> On a related note, my tutorial has, so far, made no mention of unit
> testing.  I'm planning on suggesting that code of any complexity should
>   be encapsulated into clearly defined classes that are easy to test
> independent of the Nitro environment; you shouldn't have to run a server
> to test the code.  Any thoughts on Nitro/Og unit testing?

support for unit/functional testing will be included out of the box in 0.16.0 :)
You simply CANNOT code an application in Ruby without Unit testing.

-g.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 02:45:14 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:45:14 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] To Nitro In Vitro!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504060523300.9849-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504060523300.9849-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050405234518114361@mail.gmail.com>

> So, (finally a conclussion ..), with Georges' help, I will try to write
> the Dummys' Tutorial to Nitro, for people who want to spend time on
> nothing but their app.

Thanks Emmanuel, 

I 'll help you as much as I can. Can't wait for the finished document.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From paulha at aracnet.com  Wed Apr  6 21:47:05 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:47:05 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Trouble opening MySQL database on Win32
Message-ID: <42549119.6040006@aracnet.com>

When I try to install the mysql gem, I get the following error:

    C:\Documents and Settings\phanchet\Desktop>gem install mysql >junk.txt
    ERROR:  While executing gem ... (RuntimeError)
        ERROR: Failed to build gem native extension.
    Gem files will remain installed in
    c:/ruby/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/mysql-2.5.1 fo
    r inspection.
      ruby extconf.rb install mysql\nchecking for mysql_query() in
    mysqlclient.lib..
    . no
    checking for main() in m.lib... yes
    checking for mysql_query() in mysqlclient.lib... no
    checking for main() in z.lib... no
    checking for mysql_query() in mysqlclient.lib... no
    checking for main() in socket.lib... no
    checking for mysql_query() in mysqlclient.lib... no
    checking for main() in nsl.lib... no
    checking for mysql_query() in mysqlclient.lib... no

    Results logged to
    c:/ruby/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/mysql-2.5.1/gem_make.out


How do I fix it?  Og is unhappy with me...

Paul

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From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr  7 00:29:22 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:29:22 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Trouble opening MySQL database on Win32
In-Reply-To: <42549119.6040006@aracnet.com>
References: <42549119.6040006@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <4254B722.9000408@neurogami.com>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
 >    When I try to install the mysql gem, I get the following error:
 >
 >     C:\Documents and Settings\phanchet\Desktop>gem install mysql 
 >junk.txt
 >     ERROR:  While executing gem ... (RuntimeError)
 >         ERROR: Failed to build gem native extension.


The gem expects to find a complier so it can compile C code into some 
native binary.

You may be better off just using the pure-Ruby MySQL lib.

See

http://rubyurl.com/LA3Yv

  AKA
http://www.ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/136505

James

-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Thu Apr  7 00:47:00 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:47:00 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] The Newbie! Q0-Q10
In-Reply-To: <42549119.6040006@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504070710370.17072-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

So here how it all starts!

"In the beginning there was chaos.

And then G. (G. stands for George, or Dr G., I like that, it has a reference
to God, or the "G" spot!!) decided to sit down and code Nitro...

After a couple of days G. stopped, looked at Nitro and saw that it was
GOOD! And G. was pleased, and rested..."

And then the newbie came along and said: (Some of the questions are
explained in the Nitro API documentaion, and some seam very simple for
experienced users, but for the sake of newbies, simple concise answers
will suffice, eg. Q8 => A8: .rb is a Ruby executable file. Using the
command "ruby filename.rb" we run the file.)

Q0: To Nitro? or Not to Nitro? (in Vitro...)
Q1: What is Nitro in one sentence?
Q2: What could it be used for? Show me an example (URL?).
Q3: What programming language was it written with?
Q4: What should I know in order to be able to use Nitro? (Ruby? Html? Xml?
Xsl? SQL? General Web application developing?)
Q5: Could you point me in a basic tutorial, or quick reference for each of
the previously mentioned prerequirements (URLs) [I will provide this by
myslef ;-)]
Q6: Where do I start: Download, Install, Check Install.
Q7: Walk me through the nitro package. What is each directory needed for?
Are directory names specifics? Could I change them?
Q8: What is an .rb file? What is .xhtml .xsl ? Which ones do I use?
Q9: HelloWorld? Is there an example?
Q10: Ok! I see the example, I run it, but I do not understand what is
happening. Could you explain the execution cycle of a small application
like the HelloWorld? E.g when I do: "ruby run.rb" what happens?

Q0: is a rhetorical question.
A0: The answer is of course "To Nitro" ;-)

G. waiting for your feedback.

Ps. And this is merely the beginning...

Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From paulha at aracnet.com  Thu Apr  7 01:28:01 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:28:01 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Trouble opening MySQL database on Win32
In-Reply-To: <4254B722.9000408@neurogami.com>
References: <42549119.6040006@aracnet.com> <4254B722.9000408@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <4254C4E1.9080505@aracnet.com>

Thanks James, that did the trick.  The URL's aren't quite right anymore 
though...

James Britt wrote:

> PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
> >    When I try to install the mysql gem, I get the following error:
> >
> >     C:\Documents and Settings\phanchet\Desktop>gem install mysql 
> >junk.txt
> >     ERROR:  While executing gem ... (RuntimeError)
> >         ERROR: Failed to build gem native extension.
>
>
> The gem expects to find a complier so it can compile C code into some 
> native binary.
>
> You may be better off just using the pure-Ruby MySQL lib.
>
> See
>
> http://rubyurl.com/LA3Yv
>
>  AKA
> http://www.ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/136505
>
> James
>
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From kostas at nasis.com  Thu Apr  7 01:31:51 2005
From: kostas at nasis.com (Kostas Nasis)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 01:31:51 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <4252FA90.6000909@neurogami.com>
References: <4252FA90.6000909@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <4254C5C7.70300@nasis.com>

James Britt wrote:

> I'm slowly building up a Nitro tutorial.  It starts from the 
> snake-simple, gradually adding in more Nitro features.  The premise is 
> that one can start with mocked-out plain HTML, add in some templating, 
> then actual Ruby code, and gradually get more complex, all based on 
> the actual needs of the application.  There is no de facto presumption 
> of a database (or any storage, for that matter) until such time that a 
> need is demonstrated.


I would like to help with this. Have you written something already that 
you can send me? Perhaps we can divide the work, or I can at least serve 
as a reviewer.

Kostas




From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 03:52:47 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:52:47 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I am about to register a domain for the homepage of Nitro. At the
moment, I am thinking of taking:

www.nitrohome.org

or 

www.homeofnitro.org

Any suggestions for a better domain will be appreciated. 

thanks,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 04:05:04 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:05:04 +0300
Subject: Fwd: [Nitro] The Newbie! Q0-Q10
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504070104fb1891@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42549119.6040006@aracnet.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0504070710370.17072-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
	<afd80b540504070104fb1891@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050407010574cb55db@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Emmanuel

> Q1: What is Nitro in one sentence?

Nitro is a web application platform. Nitro uses the Ruby language to inject
joy into web development. Nitro allows you to create scalable
applications. Scalability means:

- scalability on the server. Nitro will provide excellent support for
distributed applications. You will be able to simply add one more
server and see immediate performance gains.

- scalability of algorithms. We try to use O(1) algorithms as much as possible.

- scalability of development. Nitro allows you to start with a simple
application and scale this along your needs.

> Q2: What could it be used for? Show me an example (URL?).

Nitro sites will be available shortly. I plan to use it for sites similar to:

www.deviantart.com,
www.flicker.com

However Nitro is extremely useful for small intranet applications.

> Q3: What programming language was it written with?

Ruby, the programmers best friend.

> Q4: What should I know in order to be able to use Nitro? (Ruby? Html? Xml?

Ruby and Html are mandatory.

However it would be nice to be familiar with the following technologies:

CSS, XML, XHTML, Javascript, XSLT, etc...

> Q5: Could you point me in a basic tutorial, or quick reference for each of
> the previously mentioned prerequirements (URLs) [I will provide this by
> myslef ;-)]

A tutorial is coming soon. In the meantime, check out the Og tutorial
at www.rubygarden.com

> Q6: Where do I start: Download, Install, Check Install.

Simple:

Install Ruby
Install RubyGems (this is automatically installed on Windows)
run: gem install nitro
run: nitro

> Q7: Walk me through the nitro package. What is each directory needed for?
> Are directory names specifics? Could I change them?

You can use any directory structure you like.

> Q8: What is an .rb file? What is .xhtml .xsl ? Which ones do I use?

.rb contains ruby code.
.xhtml contains the server pages (the equivalent of php/asp/jsp)
.xsl (used to style your templates, this is optional, but really the most
powerful, elegant and standards compliant method to do templating.
Thanks to Nitro's implementation its is extremely efficient (in fact
it comes for free))
.css (the standard way to style html files)

> Q9: HelloWorld? Is there an example?

there are many examples. Checkout the examples directory.

> Q10: Ok! I see the example, I run it, but I do not understand what is
> happening. Could you explain the execution cycle of a small application
> like the HelloWorld? E.g when I do: "ruby run.rb" what happens?

I 'll come back with this one :)

-g.

--
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From georgep at phaistosnetworks.gr  Thu Apr  7 05:25:08 2005
From: georgep at phaistosnetworks.gr (George E. Papadakis)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:25:08 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4254FC74.6080903@phaistosnetworks.gr>

www.nitrohq.com

gp


George Moschovitis wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>I am about to register a domain for the homepage of Nitro. At the
>moment, I am thinking of taking:
>
>www.nitrohome.org
>
>or 
>
>www.homeofnitro.org
>
>Any suggestions for a better domain will be appreciated. 
>
>thanks,
>George.
>
>  
>
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From ak at navel.gr  Thu Apr  7 05:51:21 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:51:21 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <4254FC74.6080903@phaistosnetworks.gr>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4254FC74.6080903@phaistosnetworks.gr>
Message-ID: <42550299.7020809@navel.gr>

George E. Papadakis wrote:

> www.nitrohq.com
>
> gp
>
>
> George Moschovitis wrote:
>
>>Hello everyone,
>>
>>I am about to register a domain for the homepage of Nitro. At the
>>moment, I am thinking of taking:
>>
>>www.nitrohome.org
>>
>>or 
>>
>>www.homeofnitro.org
>>
>>Any suggestions for a better domain will be appreciated. 
>>
>>thanks,
>>George.
>>
>>  
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Nitro-general mailing list
>Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
>http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>  
>
www.nitroforge.org
www.nitroworld.org
www.nitroblast.org ;-)
www.gonitro.org
www.nitrolab.org
www.nitrodev.org
www.nitronet.org
www.nitro.eu
www.joyofnitro.org :-)

/ak

-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From gm at navel.gr  Thu Apr  7 05:56:09 2005
From: gm at navel.gr (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:56:09 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <42550299.7020809@navel.gr>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4254FC74.6080903@phaistosnetworks.gr>  <42550299.7020809@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <1112867770.3319.36.camel@slude.navel.gr>

> www.gonitro.org

www.go-nitro.org

i like that :) the .com is reserved though :(

-g.
-- 
web: http://www.navel.gr
tel: +30 210 6898050
fax: +30 210 6898437



From ak at navel.gr  Thu Apr  7 05:58:15 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:58:15 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <1112867770.3319.36.camel@slude.navel.gr>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4254FC74.6080903@phaistosnetworks.gr> <42550299.7020809@navel.gr>
	<1112867770.3319.36.camel@slude.navel.gr>
Message-ID: <42550437.2040305@navel.gr>

George Moschovitis wrote:

>>www.gonitro.org
>>    
>>
>
>www.go-nitro.org
>
>i like that :) the .com is reserved though :(
>
>-g.
>  
>
go-nitro-go.com :-D

/ak

-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From ak at navel.gr  Thu Apr  7 06:06:10 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:06:10 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] should we direct replies to the list?
Message-ID: <42550612.5060604@navel.gr>

i suggest we use the mailman's feature to direct the replies to the 
mailing list, instead to the original poster.

do you aggree?

/ak

-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr  7 08:34:30 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 05:34:30 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] should we direct replies to the list?
In-Reply-To: <42550612.5060604@navel.gr>
References: <42550612.5060604@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <425528D6.9000303@neurogami.com>

Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:
 > i suggest we use the mailman's feature to direct the replies to the
 > mailing list, instead to the original poster.
 >
 > do you agree?

Yes.

I've been through multiple discussions on other lists over "reply-to 
munging considered harmful", and while I think I understand the rational 
for having replies, by default, sent to the original poster rather than 
the list, 99.99% of the time I want to reply to the list, and have 
responses to my postings also go to the list.

In my mind, I am not receiving messages from George, Mike, per se, but 
from nitro-general at rubyforge.org, so that is where I want my replies sent.


Thanks,



James


From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr  7 08:36:20 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 05:36:20 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] File adapter for Og
In-Reply-To: <4254C5C7.70300@nasis.com>
References: <4252FA90.6000909@neurogami.com> <4254C5C7.70300@nasis.com>
Message-ID: <42552944.3060809@neurogami.com>

Kostas Nasis wrote:
> James Britt wrote:
> 
>> I'm slowly building up a Nitro tutorial.  It starts from the 
>> snake-simple, gradually adding in more Nitro features.  The premise is 
>> that one can start with mocked-out plain HTML, add in some templating, 
>> then actual Ruby code, and gradually get more complex, all based on 
>> the actual needs of the application.  There is no de facto presumption 
>> of a database (or any storage, for that matter) until such time that a 
>> need is demonstrated.
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to help with this. Have you written something already that 
> you can send me? Perhaps we can divide the work, or I can at least serve 
> as a reviewer.

I've sent a first draft to George.  I want to be sure what I have is at 
least technically correct.  After he has a had a chance to comment, I 
can pass it on for review.

Thanks,


James



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Fri Apr  8 11:43:50 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 18:43:50 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
Message-ID: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>

http://www.rubygarden.org/index.cgi/Libraries/og_tutorial.rdoc

-

On a windows XP machine, i get this:

"
P:\ruby\jamlang>gem install og

P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
Attempting local installation of 'og'
Local gem file not found: og*.gem
Attempting remote installation of 'og'
Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
ERROR:  While executing gem ... (Errno::ECONNREFUSED)
     ??? ???? ?????? ? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ? ??????????? 
?????????? ??? ???????? ??????. - connect(2)
"

Any suggestions?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sat Apr  9 00:54:47 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:54:47 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405040821541e7e52b@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like there is a problem with your network connection.
Try again.

regards,
George.

On Apr 8, 2005 6:43 PM, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias at lazaridis.com> wrote:
> http://www.rubygarden.org/index.cgi/Libraries/og_tutorial.rdoc
> 
> -
> 
> On a windows XP machine, i get this:
> 
> "
> P:\ruby\jamlang>gem install og
> 
> P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
> Attempting local installation of 'og'
> Local gem file not found: og*.gem
> Attempting remote installation of 'og'
> Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
> ERROR:  While executing gem ... (Errno::ECONNREFUSED)
>      ??? ???? ?????? ? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ? ???????????
> ?????????? ??? ???????? ??????. - connect(2)
> "
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> .
> 
> --
> http://lazaridis.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Sat Apr  9 01:36:57 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 22:36:57 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Infinite  loop rendering template
Message-ID: <425769F9.2080301@neurogami.com>

I have a form page, generated straight from a template, that has the 
action set to action='/post_entry'

When i submit the form, it hits the post_entry method on the default 
controller class (Blog), and then tries to render the matching template 
file, post_entry.xhtml.  So far so goo, no?

But it goes into an infinite loop:


DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'


Any ideas on what causes this?

The method is this

   def post_entry
     STDERR.puts( "-- post_entry ")
     entry = Entry.new( Time.now, request['content'] )
   end

And the template does little more than include another template for a 
header, and render properties of the entry variable.

I'm puzzled.

James


From james_b at neurogami.com  Sat Apr  9 01:52:56 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 22:52:56 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Infinite  loop rendering template
In-Reply-To: <425769F9.2080301@neurogami.com>
References: <425769F9.2080301@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <42576DB8.2060801@neurogami.com>

James Britt wrote:
> I have a form page, generated straight from a template, that has the 
> action set to action='/post_entry'
> 
> When i submit the form, it hits the post_entry method on the default 
> controller class (Blog), and then tries to render the matching template 
> file, post_entry.xhtml.  So far so goo, no?
> 
> But it goes into an infinite loop:
> 
> 
> DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
> DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
> DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
> DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
> DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
> DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
> DEBUG: Transforming 'public/index.xhtml'
> DEBUG: Compiling action 'public/'
> 


I've fixed what was , I think, causing the problem; my template called a 
non-existent variable.   I changed 'entry' to '@entry' in the post_entry 
  method, and made sure I used that same var in the template.

But that such an error can result in an infinite loop could be a problem 
anyway.

James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr  9 11:04:09 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:04:09 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405040821541e7e52b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405040821541e7e52b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d38qo8$f6o$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> On Apr 8, 2005 6:43 PM, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias at lazaridis.com> wrote:
> 
>>http://www.rubygarden.org/index.cgi/Libraries/og_tutorial.rdoc
>>
>>-
>>
>>On a windows XP machine, i get this:
>>
>>"
>>P:\ruby\jamlang>gem install og
>>
>>P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
>>Attempting local installation of 'og'
>>Local gem file not found: og*.gem
>>Attempting remote installation of 'og'
>>Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
>>ERROR:  While executing gem ... (Errno::ECONNREFUSED)
>>     ??? ???? ?????? ? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ? ???????????
>>?????????? ??? ???????? ??????. - connect(2)
>>"
>>
>>Any suggestions?

 > Seems like there is a problem with your network connection.
 > Try again.

I've tried again, but i've the feeling that i've not install OG:

"
P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
Attempting local installation of 'og'
Local gem file not found: og*.gem
Attempting remote installation of 'og'
Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
Successfully installed production_log_analyzer, version 1.1.0
Installing RDoc documentation for production_log_analyzer-1.1.0...
"

what now?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sat Apr  9 12:49:19 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:49:19 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <d38qo8$f6o$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405040821541e7e52b@mail.gmail.com>
	<d38qo8$f6o$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504090949278161ac@mail.gmail.com>

> I've tried again, but i've the feeling that i've not install OG:
> 
> "
> P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
> Attempting local installation of 'og'
> Local gem file not found: og*.gem
> Attempting remote installation of 'og'
> Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
> Successfully installed production_log_analyzer, version 1.1.0
> Installing RDoc documentation for production_log_analyzer-1.1.0...
> "
> 

This looks very strange. Seems that you installed
production_log_analyzer instead of og.
I will have to ask Chad Fowler about this. In the meantime, why dont you try:

P:\ruby\jamlang> "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og

or even better

P:\ruby\jamlang> gem install og


thanks,
George,

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sat Apr  9 12:53:07 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:53:07 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Infinite loop rendering template
In-Reply-To: <42576DB8.2060801@neurogami.com>
References: <425769F9.2080301@neurogami.com> <42576DB8.2060801@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504090953f7acb44@mail.gmail.com>

> I've fixed what was , I think, causing the problem; my template called a
> non-existent variable.   I changed 'entry' to '@entry' in the post_entry

Yeap, only @xxx variables are passed around. (This may change before the 0.16.0
release though).

> But that such an error can result in an infinite loop could be a problem
> anyway.

I dont understand why you got the infinite loop. I 'll try to recreate
the problem and fix this,
thanks for pointing this out to me.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr  9 13:03:56 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:03:56 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504090949278161ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>	<afd80b5405040821541e7e52b@mail.gmail.com>	<d38qo8$f6o$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b540504090949278161ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d391op$1l2$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>I've tried again, but i've the feeling that i've not install OG:
>>
>>"
>>P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
>>Attempting local installation of 'og'
>>Local gem file not found: og*.gem
>>Attempting remote installation of 'og'
>>Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
>>Successfully installed production_log_analyzer, version 1.1.0
>>Installing RDoc documentation for production_log_analyzer-1.1.0...
>>"
>>
> 
> This looks very strange. Seems that you installed
> production_log_analyzer instead of og.
> I will have to ask Chad Fowler about this. In the meantime, why dont you try:
> 
> P:\ruby\jamlang> "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
> 
> or even better
> 
> P:\ruby\jamlang> gem install og

I had typed exactly this (which led to the above execution).

> thanks,
> George,

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sun Apr 10 05:49:50 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:49:50 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d3asmj$jj1$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> http://www.rubygarden.org/index.cgi/Libraries/og_tutorial.rdoc
> 
> -
> 
> On a windows XP machine, i get this:
> 
> "
> P:\ruby\jamlang>gem install og
> 
> P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
> Attempting local installation of 'og'
> Local gem file not found: og*.gem
> Attempting remote installation of 'og'
> Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
> ERROR:  While executing gem ... (Errno::ECONNREFUSED)
>     ??? ???? ?????? ? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ? ??????????? 
> ?????????? ??? ???????? ??????. - connect(2)
> "
> 
> Any suggestions?

I've tried "nitro"

"
P:\ruby\navel>gem install nitro

P:\ruby\navel>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install nitro
Attempting local installation of 'nitro'
Local gem file not found: nitro*.gem
Attempting remote installation of 'nitro'
Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
Install required dependency glue? [Yn]  y
Install required dependency extensions? [Yn]  y
Install required dependency flexmock? [Yn]  y
Install required dependency og? [Yn]  y
Install required dependency ruby-breakpoint? [Yn]  y
Install required dependency extensions? [Yn]  y
Install required dependency flexmock? [Yn]  y
Successfully installed nitro, version 0.15.0
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:32: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_BEG
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:33: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_MID
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:34: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_END
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:35: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_ARG
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:36: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_FNAME
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:37: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_DOT
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:38: warning: already 
initialized constant EXPR_CLASS
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:263: warning: already 
initialized constant TokenDefinitions
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:268: warning: already 
initialized constant TkReading2Token
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/1.8/rdoc/parsers/parse_rb.rb:269: warning: already 
initialized constant TkSymbol2Token
ERROR:  While executing gem ... (NameError)
     uninitialized constant RubyToken::AlreadyDefinedToken
"

-

Still not sure if I got OG correctly.

-

Can I manyally download "OG" somewhere (standalone, means *not* bundled 
with nitro)?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr 10 12:10:49 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:10:49 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <d3asmj$jj1$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org> <d3asmj$jj1$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050410091054e2ffce@mail.gmail.com>

This seems to work, better. Perhaps you are not using the latest
version of Ruby?
Have you installed 1.8.2 ? This is the first time I see those
warnings. But it seems like nitro is installed. Have a look at the
gems directory to find the gems.

BTW, the next version of Nitro/Og will have improved gem distributions
with less dependencies.

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sun Apr 10 12:41:15 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:41:15 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050410091054e2ffce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org> <d3asmj$jj1$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b54050410091054e2ffce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3bkpu$eah$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> This seems to work, better. Perhaps you are not using the latest
> version of Ruby?
> Have you installed 1.8.2 ? 

yes (1.8.2-14)

> This is the first time I see those
> warnings. But it seems like nitro is installed. Have a look at the
> gems directory to find the gems.

I don't like to use gems.

I just want to get "OG".

"Can I manyally download "OG" somewhere (standalone, means *not* bundled 
with nitro)?"

> BTW, the next version of Nitro/Og will have improved gem distributions
> with less dependencies.

ok.

what is the minimals effort download (not via GEM) to be able to 
evaluate "OG" (independent of Nitro)?

> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Sun Apr 10 13:19:35 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:19:35 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050410090761fae96a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4258BEC5.10303@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b54050410090761fae96a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42596027.3070509@earthlink.net>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hmm how can I buy nitro.org? Any info appreciated.
> 
> thanks,
> George.
> 
> 
>>nitro.org and nitro.net are both squatted on but not really in use.  Did you consider
>>it likely to be too expensive to try to buy one of those or is the existence of
>>nitro.com the impediment?
>>
>>craig

Speaking of the mailing list defaults... i accidentally sent my response (above) only 
to George.  Anyway, i've emailed the contact person for both nitro.org & nitro.net 
inquiring about their availability and will let you know what the response is.


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr 10 13:23:25 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:23:25 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <42596027.3070509@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4258BEC5.10303@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b54050410090761fae96a@mail.gmail.com>
	<42596027.3070509@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050410102360fb5c78@mail.gmail.com>

> Speaking of the mailing list defaults... i accidentally sent my response (above) only
> to George.  Anyway, i've emailed the contact person for both nitro.org & nitro.net
> inquiring about their availability and will let you know what the response is.

Ok, thanks! About the mailing list defaults, Tasos will fix this tommorow.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr 10 13:25:29 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:25:29 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <d3bkpu$eah$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org> <d3asmj$jj1$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b54050410091054e2ffce@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3bkpu$eah$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041010256deab22b@mail.gmail.com>

> what is the minimals effort download (not via GEM) to be able to
> evaluate "OG" (independent of Nitro)?

The minimal effort download uses Gems:

gem install og

You can also download the .zip version

og-0.15.0.zip + glue-0.15.0.zip and follow the instuctions
in INSTALL.

but you *really* should try the gem.

George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sun Apr 10 14:30:57 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:30:57 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041010256deab22b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<d3asmj$jj1$1@sea.gmane.org>	<afd80b54050410091054e2ffce@mail.gmail.com>	<d3bkpu$eah$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405041010256deab22b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3br7j$v9d$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>what is the minimals effort download (not via GEM) to be able to
>>evaluate "OG" (independent of Nitro)?
> 
> 
> The minimal effort download uses Gems:
> 
> gem install og
> 
> You can also download the .zip version
> 
> og-0.15.0.zip + glue-0.15.0.zip and follow the instuctions
> in INSTALL.

ok

http://rubyforge.org/frs/?group_id=418

> but you *really* should try the gem.

I have tried it - and provided you with the error messages.

You should now fix the problem.

> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sun Apr 10 16:58:47 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:58:47 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Making it work with SQLite
Message-ID: <d3c3sp$mmo$1@sea.gmane.org>

Which are the steps to make OG work with SQLite?

http://www.sqlite.org/

-

I would like to be able to keep everything within one folder:

http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/index.html#installation

How can this be achieved?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Mon Apr 11 10:04:43 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:04:43 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <42596027.3070509@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>		<4258BEC5.10303@earthlink.net>	<afd80b54050410090761fae96a@mail.gmail.com>
	<42596027.3070509@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <425A83FB.9080202@earthlink.net>

craig duncan wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
> 
>> Hmm how can I buy nitro.org? Any info appreciated.
>>
>> thanks,
>> George.
>>
>>
>>> nitro.org and nitro.net are both squatted on but not really in use.  
>>> Did you consider it likely to be too expensive to try to buy one of
 >>> those or is the existence of nitro.com the impediment?
>>>
>>> craig

I quote: "I think it would be too expensive for you. " from the person who owns the 
nitro.net name.  I really don't (didn't) know anything about the relative price 
levels of those who play the squatting game.  But i think i conveyed to him the idea 
that we could pay something but not a lot (without mentioning any numbers: ~$100 
might be at the outer limits of feasibility but certainly not hundreds of dollars). 
And so his response indicates, to me, that these sort of people are looking for a 
return on their investment of maybe 500% or better.

Never got a response from nitro.org.  Maybe there are actual plans for doing 
something with that site.  Or maybe they don't even bother to respond to someone who 
isn't talking real money.  :-)

craig


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 10:13:52 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:13:52 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Nitro domain
In-Reply-To: <425A83FB.9080202@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405040700523eb1d3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4258BEC5.10303@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b54050410090761fae96a@mail.gmail.com>
	<42596027.3070509@earthlink.net> <425A83FB.9080202@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050411071312f3d712@mail.gmail.com>

Never mind, www.nitrohq.com is ok for the purpose :) Thanks for trying anyway :)

-g.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 10:16:33 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:16:33 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I am trying to introduce some AOP concepts in the next version of
Nitro. Any suggestion for a good AOP library for ruby?

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 12:18:03 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:18:03 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3e7q5$6un$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am trying to introduce some AOP concepts in the next version of
> Nitro. Any suggestion for a good AOP library for ruby?

I've the impression, that ruby does not need any AOP libraries, as it's 
supports AOP naturally.

-

Please stabelize/productize the current state of:

   * OG
   * Nitro

before going on with critical extensions like AOP.

This includes the simplification of installation etc.

.

> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ak at navel.gr  Mon Apr 11 12:24:19 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:24:19 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>

George Moschovitis wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>I am trying to introduce some AOP concepts in the next version of
>Nitro. Any suggestion for a good AOP library for ruby?
>
>regards,
>George.
>
>  
>
My opinion is that rather than new features/concepts/etc. we need to 
freeze the Nitro features, fix the documentation, and only write new 
code for absolutely necessary missing parts!

Tasos

-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 11 12:26:34 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:26:34 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <d3e7q5$6un$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3e7q5$6un$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050411092648751d6a@mail.gmail.com>

> Please stabelize/productize the current state of:
> ...
> before going on with critical extensions like AOP.

this will help the stabilization. It will re-factor existing code and
allow for more code reuse
between Nitro + Og.

> This includes the simplification of installation etc.

Working on this. Regarding installation, just entering

gem install nitro 

works for me. But I am investigating your problems, just be patient.
The next version
will be much easier to install.

-g.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From james_b at neurogami.com  Mon Apr 11 12:42:11 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:42:11 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
Message-ID: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>


Hi all,

While trying to get the Og FileSystem adapter working to my liking, I
noticed that the other database adapters were making an interesting
assumption about client code.

There is a method common to all adapters, read_all, that is given a
result set 'res' and a class 'klass'.

The code (at least in the mysql and sqlite case) does this:

obj = klass.new
obj.og_read(res)

So, if you have a blog application and have marked the BlogEntry class
for persistence by Og, the BlogEntry constructor cannot have any
mandatory arguments, else read_all fails.

I can understand the need to for this; general-purpose code cannot know
the arity and details of each and every constructor.  But I am unhappy
with this solution for two reasons.

The first is that part of the appeal og Nitro/Og is that you can build
up an application without having to make design decisions based on
unknown future needs, or based on the demands and quirks of the
framework.  I like the idea that I can start with a set of vanilla HTML
pages and migrate them to use templates, server code, and a database.  I
don't have to plan for all that well before I've determined actual
business needs.  I would much prefer to be able to take a business
object class, switch the attr_* calls to prop_* calls, and magically get
Og goodness.  Being required to define a particular form of 'initialize'
method, even when it does not fit in with a preferred design scheme,
feels cumbersome.

The second objection is that having a constructor that allows for no
arguments may mean one can create an object with invalid state.  For
example, a BlogEntry instance is meaningless and perhaps disruptive if
it does not contain, say some content and a date.

Ironically, on my first pass at adding code to the filesys adapter I
simply used YAML::load to convert the serialized objects back to Ruby.
There was no need to invoke a constructor.  It was only after looking at
how the other adapters did this that I tried the kalss.new approach, and
my code broke.  The (arguably) weakest adapter has the best tool for 
object revival.

One thought then was that load_all (and similar methods) could take the
database results and use them to create a YAML representation of the
object, then call YAML::load.

I believe that YAML uses binary code under the hood to actually do this, 
so mimicking the technique may be a problem.  But I hope someone can 
prove me wrong.  (Might be worth asking this in the ruby-musing list, 
where extreme metaprogramming seems to be the norm.)

Thoughts?  Is it a reasonable concession to ask of developers that 
Og-persisted objects have to have a certain style of constructor?

On a side note, it is of course possible to write a "have it both ways" 
constructor, which is not a bad idea in itself, but maybe not something 
people should be forced to do in order to have both Og persistence and 
argument checking.

#---------------------------------------------
class BlogEntry
   attr_accessor :content, :time , :title

   def initialize( content = nil, time = nil , title = nil )
     @content, @time , @title  = content, time , title
     yield self unless (content || time || title )
     raise "All args are required" unless (@content || @time || @title )
   end

end


be = BlogEntry.new( 'This is my entry', Time.now, "Test" )

be2 = BlogEntry.new { |entry|
     entry.content = "Content"
     entry.time = Time.now
     entry.title  = "Testing"
   }

def make_it( res, klass )
   obj = klass.new { |k|
     res.each { |prop, val| k.send( "#{prop}=", val) }
   }
end

res = { 'content' => "Content",
         'time' => Time.now,
         'title'  => "Testing"
       }

be3 = make_it( res, BlogEntry )

#---------------------------------------------

If there is a requirement that the constructor have no mandatory 
arguments, perhaps there can also be a requirement that the constructor 
yield self so that og_read can dynamically set object properties while 
the initialize method still has an opportunity to do internal validity 
checks.


James



From james_b at neurogami.com  Mon Apr 11 12:47:52 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:47:52 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>

Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
> 
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I am trying to introduce some AOP concepts in the next version of
>> Nitro. Any suggestion for a good AOP library for ruby?
>>
>> regards,
>> George.
>>
>>  
>>
> My opinion is that rather than new features/concepts/etc. we need to 
> freeze the Nitro features, fix the documentation, and only write new 
> code for absolutely necessary missing parts!

I'm tempted to agree with this, but now is better than later for getting 
in any worthwhile additions with the least concern for breaking things.

If AOP can help simplify the API and object model, such that adding more 
features does not require API changes, that would be worth waiting for. 
  Depending, of course, and just how long is the wait.

I'd would ask, though, that certain naming conventions be nailed down, 
even if APIs may change.   I think, for example, that both Component and 
Controller classes are really the same thing, and that they may both end 
up being called something else.  And the template file extension names, 
too, need clarification.


James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 12:43:49 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:43:49 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Making it work with SQLite
In-Reply-To: <d3c3sp$mmo$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3c3sp$mmo$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d3e9ad$cu0$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Which are the steps to make OG work with SQLite?
> 
> http://www.sqlite.org/

can I please have some inforamtion on this?

> I would like to be able to keep everything within one folder:
> 
> http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/index.html#installation
> 
> How can this be achieved?
> 
> .
> 


-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 12:47:12 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:47:12 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050411092648751d6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<d3e7q5$6un$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b54050411092648751d6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3e9go$e0r$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>Please stabelize/productize the current state of:
>>...
>>before going on with critical extensions like AOP.
> 
> this will help the stabilization. It will re-factor existing code and
> allow for more code reuse between Nitro + Og.

You should postpone the refactoring, which is a problem source.

please freeze and make a product.

e.g. "gem install og" fails.

it is an essential step for the og installation.

>>This includes the simplification of installation etc.
> 
> Working on this. Regarding installation, just entering
> 
> gem install nitro 
> 
> works for me. But I am investigating your problems, just be patient.
> The next version will be much easier to install.

I'm waiting already 3 days.

But for sure I cannot wait until the next version.

> -g.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From james_b at neurogami.com  Mon Apr 11 13:15:00 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:15:00 -0700
Subject: *****SPAM***** Re: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <d3e9go$e0r$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3e9go$e0r$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <425AB094.4@neurogami.com>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
> e.g. "gem install og" fails.
> 
> it is an essential step for the og installation.

What version of gems are you using? On what OS?

"gem install og" works fine for me on Win3k, with the ruby 1-click, and 
gems 0.8.6.

Have you tried
  gem install nitro ?


James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 13:36:28 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:36:28 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <d38qo8$f6o$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d368mv$5qb$1@sea.gmane.org>	<afd80b5405040821541e7e52b@mail.gmail.com>
	<d38qo8$f6o$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d3ecd4$o9o$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]

> I've tried again, but i've the feeling that i've not install OG:
> 
> "
> P:\ruby\jamlang>"c:\ruby\bin\ruby.exe" "c:\ruby\bin\gem" install og
> Attempting local installation of 'og'
> Local gem file not found: og*.gem
> Attempting remote installation of 'og'
> Updating Gem source index for: http://gems.rubyforge.org
> Successfully installed production_log_analyzer, version 1.1.0
> Installing RDoc documentation for production_log_analyzer-1.1.0...
> "
> 
> what now?


James Britt within another thread:
> What version of gems are you using? 

0.8.3 (just installed ruby 182-14 bundle)

> On what OS?

xp pro

> "gem install og" works fine for me on Win3k, with the ruby 1-click, and gems 0.8.6.
> 
> Have you tried
>  gem install nitro ? 

yes, see within this thread.

but: I need "gem install og".

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 13:38:00 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:38:00 +0300
Subject: *****SPAM***** Re: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425AB094.4@neurogami.com>
References: <d3e9go$e0r$1@sea.gmane.org> <425AB094.4@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <d3ecg0$o9o$2@sea.gmane.org>

James Britt wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>>
>> e.g. "gem install og" fails.
>>
>> it is an essential step for the og installation.
> 
> 
> What version of gems are you using? On what OS?
> 
> "gem install og" works fine for me on Win3k, with the ruby 1-click, and 
> gems 0.8.6.
> 
> Have you tried
>  gem install nitro ?

see my answer within thread:

"[Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation"

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From kostas at nasis.com  Mon Apr 11 14:09:54 2005
From: kostas at nasis.com (Kostas Nasis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:09:54 +0000
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
Message-ID: <425abd72599685.74209126@reply.gr>

> I've tried again, but i've the feeling that i've not install OG:

I've confirmed that "gem install og" does in fact not work with 0.8.3.

Do this:

cd c:\ruby\bin

gem install rubygems-update

cd c:\ruby\lib\ruby\gems\1.8\gems\rubygems-update-0.8.10\

ruby setup.rb

cd c:\ruby\bin

gem -v
(You should see 0.8.10)

gem install og

Og should now be installed.

Kostas



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 14:58:09 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:58:09 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Problems with GEM installation
In-Reply-To: <425abd72599685.74209126@reply.gr>
References: <425abd72599685.74209126@reply.gr>
Message-ID: <d3eh6a$9av$1@sea.gmane.org>

Kostas Nasis wrote:
>>I've tried again, but i've the feeling that i've not install OG:
> 
> 
> I've confirmed that "gem install og" does in fact not work with 0.8.3.
> 
> Do this:

[steps corrected to minimal neccessary]

> gem install rubygems-update
> 
> cd c:\ruby\lib\ruby\gems\1.8\gems\rubygems-update-0.8.10\
> 
> ruby setup.rb

> gem -v
> (You should see 0.8.10)
> 
> gem install og
> 
> Og should now be installed.

yes, it is.

thanks for the precise info.

> Kostas

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 15:16:01 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:16:01 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [WEBSITE] - Google Ads on Project Website
Message-ID: <d3ei7p$d4j$1@sea.gmane.org>

http://nitro.rubyforge.org/

you should better remove the google ads on the project website.

visitors should focus on nitro.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 11 16:31:01 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:31:01 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Making it work with SQLite
In-Reply-To: <d3e9ad$cu0$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3c3sp$mmo$1@sea.gmane.org> <d3e9ad$cu0$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d3emkk$tg2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Which are the steps to make OG work with SQLite?
>>
>> http://www.sqlite.org/
> 
> can I please have some inforamtion on this?

The steps were simple (but why has none answered?):

download and install sqlite from www.sqlite.org

install ruby-sqlite binding:

gem install sqlite3 [select latest version from list]

-

change code from tutorial:

db = Og::Database.new(
     :database => 'test',
     :adapter  => 'sqlite',   # was 'psql',
     :user     => 'postgres',
     :password => 'navelrulez'
)


>> I would like to be able to keep everything within one folder:
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/index.html#installation
>>
>> How can this be achieved?

?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Mon Apr 11 21:31:13 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:31:13 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120427320.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

> >
> My opinion is that rather than new features/concepts/etc. we need to
> freeze the Nitro features, fix the documentation, and only write new
> code for absolutely necessary missing parts!
>
> Tasos

I agree 100% with Tasos. We should make a combined effort. This effort
should of course start from G. You should put a bit more documentation on
the API (the latest one) and we will start reading the code... I do not
see another way... We split the code or something, work in pairs...

I believe Tasos is really good at organizing teams and people for
cooperative tasks...




Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Mon Apr 11 21:38:43 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:38:43 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: *****SPAM***** Re: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425AB094.4@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120437500.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

> >
> > e.g. "gem install og" fails.
> >
> > it is an essential step for the og installation.
>
> What version of gems are you using? On what OS?
>
> "gem install og" works fine for me on Win3k, with the ruby 1-click, and
> gems 0.8.6.
>
> Have you tried
>   gem install nitro ?
>
gem install nitro
and
gem install og
work fine on Debian too... (just in case...anybody is asking...)


Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From james_b at neurogami.com  Mon Apr 11 22:59:14 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:59:14 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120437500.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120437500.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <425B3982.4050700@neurogami.com>

Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:
> 
> gem install nitro
> and
> gem install og
> work fine on Debian too... (just in case...anybody is asking...)

I think the issue all along was that an older version of rubygems was 
too eager with regex matching on gem names, hooking the wrong gem in the 
process, with no confirmation or offer of alternatives,



James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 00:56:25 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:56:25 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr> <425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm tempted to agree with this, but now is better than later for getting
> in any worthwhile additions with the least concern for breaking things.

Exactly, and I think this AOP thing will be worth the extra effort.
 
> If AOP can help simplify the API and object model, such that adding more
> features does not require API changes, that would be worth waiting for.
>   Depending, of course, and just how long is the wait.

I 'll send you later today some code for review. I have a simple
implementation ready.

> I'd would ask, though, that certain naming conventions be nailed down,
> even if APIs may change.   I think, for example, that both Component and
> ...
> too, need clarification.

You are right, trying extra hard to nail these things down. Regarding
the template name I don't like .sx after all. It implies [S]erver side
and [X]ml, neither of which is mandatory. For example, templates are
used by the Mailer subsystem and may not use XML. Any other ideas? How
about .t and .ti ?

About the Controller-Component thing, it will stay as Controller.

regards,
George.



-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 01:01:19 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:01:19 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>

Hello James,

the problem is not that serious (as you said you *can* use a
constructor with arguments, they should just default to null).
However, I 'll try to find a better solution. Of course I 'll really
appreciate a patch for this :)

best regards,
George.

On Apr 11, 2005 7:42 PM, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> While trying to get the Og FileSystem adapter working to my liking, I
> ...
> the initialize method still has an opportunity to do internal validity
> checks.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From paulha at aracnet.com  Tue Apr 12 01:21:17 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:21:17 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>
	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:

>You are right, trying extra hard to nail these things down. Regarding
>the template name I don't like .sx after all. It implies [S]erver side
>and [X]ml, neither of which is mandatory. For example, templates are
>used by the Mailer subsystem and may not use XML. Any other ideas? How
>about .t and .ti ?
>  
>
Forgive a dumb question-- What is wrong with the current .xhtml?  Will 
it need to go to a different template processor, or are you just trying 
to make sure it can be configured to choose the right one?

I get confused by a million different extensions, most of them really 
being the same thing with really minor differences.  Babel!

Paul



From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 01:50:31 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:50:31 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>>
> Forgive a dumb question-- What is wrong with the current .xhtml?  Will 
> it need to go to a different template processor, or are you just trying 
> to make sure it can be configured to choose the right one?

My concern is that there is no requirement that the files actually be 
XHTML.  They can be anything.  The XHTML lead me to think that Nitro was 
doing something special with regards to XHTML; it doesn't, really, 
though it will do XSLT transformations given XML.

James

-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 02:17:03 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:17:03 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello James,
> 
> the problem is not that serious (as you said you *can* use a
> constructor with arguments, they should just default to null).

But then your constructor has no way to ensure that the object i ever 
correctly initialized.  That's my concern.

The "yield self from initialize" version at least gives the option of 
coding some validity checks during initialization.

> However, I 'll try to find a better solution. Of course I 'll really
> appreciate a patch for this :)

Ah,  well, of course.

How abut something like this, for initializing objects:

def object_init( klass, vals = {} )
   obj = klass.new do |o|
     until  vals.empty?
       prop, val = *(vals.shift )
       o.send( "#{prop}=", val )
     end
   end

   return obj if vals.empty?

   vals.each do |prop, val|
     obj.send( "#{prop}=", val )
   end
   obj
end

It first tries to populate an object that yields self from 'new'
If the block if never called, then the current Og approach is used.

This way, existing apps still work, and new apps have the option of 
using constructors that yield self.


James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 08:46:56 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:46:56 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm, I am not sure, how to integrate this code snippet in Og. 

Can you please explain this a little bit better? I 'll also try to
think on this later today (very difficult to work on nitro/think in
the office).

regards,
George.


From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 09:54:49 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 06:54:49 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hmm, I am not sure, how to integrate this code snippet in Og. 
> 
> Can you please explain this a little bit better? I 'll also try to
> think on this later today (very difficult to work on nitro/think in
> the office).


In the assorted Og adapters, when read_all is called, the code 
instantiates an instance of the serialized object, the calls obj.og_read 
(which sets object properties)

  res.each do |row|
   obj = klass.new
   obj.og_read(row)
   objects << obj
  end


Perhaps this could be replaced with something that first tries to 
populate the object by passing a block to klass.new.

James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Tue Apr 12 10:41:10 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:41:10 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120427320.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120427320.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <d3gmgd$7hr$1@sea.gmane.org>

Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:
>>My opinion is that rather than new features/concepts/etc. we need to
>>freeze the Nitro features, fix the documentation, and only write new
>>code for absolutely necessary missing parts!
>>
>>Tasos
> 
> 
> I agree 100% with Tasos. We should make a combined effort. This effort
> should of course start from G. 

No exactly.

This should of course start from the project-manager, who decides 
independently if the core developer is in an activity-trap.

> You should put a bit more documentation on
> the API (the latest one) and we will start reading the code... I do not
> see another way... We split the code or something, work in pairs...

Splitting the code has benefits, like allowing the team to document, 
whilst not mindering developers creativity.

But I brings some other problems, like the need to merge the branches etc.

> I believe Tasos is really good at organizing teams and people for
> cooperative tasks...

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ak at navel.gr  Tue Apr 12 11:45:00 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:45:00 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <425BECFC.7070409@navel.gr>

James Britt wrote:

> George Moschovitis wrote:
>
>> Hmm, I am not sure, how to integrate this code snippet in Og.
>> Can you please explain this a little bit better? I 'll also try to
>> think on this later today (very difficult to work on nitro/think in
>> the office).
>
>
>
> In the assorted Og adapters, when read_all is called, the code 
> instantiates an instance of the serialized object, the calls 
> obj.og_read (which sets object properties)
>
>  res.each do |row|
>   obj = klass.new
>   obj.og_read(row)
>   objects << obj
>  end
>
>
> Perhaps this could be replaced with something that first tries to 
> populate the object by passing a block to klass.new.

Now, that's a great idea, I think it's straight-forward to implement. 
The only issue that may arise is a performance penalty for  first trying 
to pass the block and then fall back to the original techique. Since 
nitro is for speed (among other things), we should "join forces" for 
using the right way of implementing your idea, minimizing this 
performance penalty.

Regards,
Tasos

>
> James
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general



-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 12:29:06 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:29:06 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425BECFC.7070409@navel.gr>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<425BECFC.7070409@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <425BF752.5090202@neurogami.com>

Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:
> James Britt wrote:
...

>>
>> Perhaps this could be replaced with something that first tries to 
>> populate the object by passing a block to klass.new.
> 
> 
> Now, that's a great idea, I think it's straight-forward to implement. 
> The only issue that may arise is a performance penalty for  first trying 
> to pass the block and then fall back to the original techique. Since 
> nitro is for speed (among other things), we should "join forces" for 
> using the right way of implementing your idea, minimizing this 
> performance penalty.


In the example code (object_init) , the first part assumes the method 
takes a block. If that is not true, the block is never called, though 
the object is created (which has to happen either way).

If the block *is* called, the method exits before trying the non-block 
version. Otherwise, the accessors are invoked on the object.

I don't think this is an expensive test; actually, I don't see any extra 
overhead at all, other than using hash.shift (which may be marginally 
more expensive than a non-destructive iteration over the hash).

It's not as though the block is executed on every call  If 'initialize' 
never calls yield, the block is never executed.

So, read_all, in each adapter, might have:

res.each do |row|
   obj = object_init( klass, row )
end

Each adapter may have to implement object_init, because each database 
has a different way of defining a 'row'.


James


From paulha at aracnet.com  Tue Apr 12 12:47:25 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:47:25 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>
	<425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>

Oh, you mean there's no requirement that the files for Nitro be 
xhtml...  I see.  But the expectation is that processing the file will 
result in an html document, right?  When I saw xhtml I knew I was 
looking at an XML style document that should result in html for viewing.

I don't think I'd be too quick to abandon that unless there is some 
*misleading* understanding it creates...

Paul

James Britt wrote:

> PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>
>>>
>> Forgive a dumb question-- What is wrong with the current .xhtml?  
>> Will it need to go to a different template processor, or are you just 
>> trying to make sure it can be configured to choose the right one?
>
>
> My concern is that there is no requirement that the files actually be 
> XHTML.  They can be anything.  The XHTML lead me to think that Nitro 
> was doing something special with regards to XHTML; it doesn't, really, 
> though it will do XSLT transformations given XML.
>
> James
>
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From paulha at aracnet.com  Tue Apr 12 12:51:32 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:51:32 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <d3gmgd$7hr$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0504120427320.10080-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
	<d3gmgd$7hr$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <425BFC94.3090504@aracnet.com>

So, who's doing what?  I'll take the position of "Interested Observer 
Who Doesn't Know Much (IOWKoM)".  ;-)

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:
>
>>> My opinion is that rather than new features/concepts/etc. we need to
>>> freeze the Nitro features, fix the documentation, and only write new
>>> code for absolutely necessary missing parts!
>>>
>>> Tasos
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree 100% with Tasos. We should make a combined effort. This effort
>> should of course start from G. 
>
>
> No exactly.
>
> This should of course start from the project-manager, who decides 
> independently if the core developer is in an activity-trap.
>
>> You should put a bit more documentation on
>> the API (the latest one) and we will start reading the code... I do not
>> see another way... We split the code or something, work in pairs...
>
>
> Splitting the code has benefits, like allowing the team to document, 
> whilst not mindering developers creativity.
>
> But I brings some other problems, like the need to merge the branches 
> etc.
>
>> I believe Tasos is really good at organizing teams and people for
>> cooperative tasks...
>
>
> .
>
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From paulha at aracnet.com  Tue Apr 12 12:55:11 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:55:11 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP?
Message-ID: <425BFD6F.1050209@aracnet.com>

I'm missing something-- AOP == "Aspect Oriented Programming"?  Or 
something else?

Looking for a pointer...

Paul

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From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 13:08:22 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:08:22 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>	<425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>
	<425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>    Oh, you mean there's no requirement that the files for Nitro be 
> xhtml...  I see.  But the expectation is that processing the file will 
> result in an html document, right?  When I saw xhtml I knew I was 
> looking at an XML style document that should result in html for viewing.
> 
> I don't think I'd be too quick to abandon that unless there is some 
> *misleading* understanding it creates...


There is no assurance that what you'll get is (X)HTML; it all depends on 
what you happen to put in the template.  There is no actual connection 
to XHTML or HTML, really; it's just text templating.

James


From paulha at aracnet.com  Tue Apr 12 13:27:28 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:27:28 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>	<425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>	<425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>
	<425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <425C0500.1060902@aracnet.com>

Exactly.  Most template based generation is like that, right?  I'll vote 
for xhtml then.  :-)

James Britt wrote:

> PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>
>>    Oh, you mean there's no requirement that the files for Nitro be 
>> xhtml...  I see.  But the expectation is that processing the file 
>> will result in an html document, right?  When I saw xhtml I knew I 
>> was looking at an XML style document that should result in html for 
>> viewing.
>>
>> I don't think I'd be too quick to abandon that unless there is some 
>> *misleading* understanding it creates...
>
>
>
> There is no assurance that what you'll get is (X)HTML; it all depends 
> on what you happen to put in the template.  There is no actual 
> connection to XHTML or HTML, really; it's just text templating.
>
> James
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>
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From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 13:51:36 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:51:36 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425C0500.1060902@aracnet.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>	<425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>	<425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>
	<425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com> <425C0500.1060902@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <425C0AA8.3010901@neurogami.com>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>    Exactly.  Most template based generation is like that, right?  I'll 
> vote for xhtml then.  :-)

I'll leave it to you, then, to explain to the puzzled (such as myself) 
why the .xhtml source files are not XHTML, nor do they result in XHTML, 
and appear to have no actual relation to XHTML.

Most general-purpose templating systems use a neutral file extension 
(e.g. .PHP, .ASP), intended to identify the processing application 
rather than than any arbitrary output format.

James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 14:48:34 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:48:34 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP?
In-Reply-To: <425BFD6F.1050209@aracnet.com>
References: <425BFD6F.1050209@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041211486dbe1bf8@mail.gmail.com>

yeap.

On Apr 12, 2005 7:55 PM, PAUL HANCHETT <paulha at aracnet.com> wrote:
>  I'm missing something-- AOP == "Aspect Oriented Programming"?  Or something
> else?

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 14:51:12 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:51:12 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425C0AA8.3010901@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr> <425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com> <425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>
	<425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com> <425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com>
	<425C0500.1060902@aracnet.com> <425C0AA8.3010901@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504121151530030bf@mail.gmail.com>

I tend to agree with James. I think using .xhtml as the extension was
a bit unfortunate.
On the positive side, we can still change this to something more neutral :)

-g.

On Apr 12, 2005 8:51 PM, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
> PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
> >    Exactly.  Most template based generation is like that, right?  I'll
> > vote for xhtml then.  :-)
> 
> I'll leave it to you, then, to explain to the puzzled (such as myself)
> why the .xhtml source files are not XHTML, nor do they result in XHTML,
> and appear to have no actual relation to XHTML.
> 
> Most general-purpose templating systems use a neutral file extension
> (e.g. .PHP, .ASP), intended to identify the processing application
> rather than than any arbitrary output format.
> 
> James
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr


From paulha at aracnet.com  Tue Apr 12 16:39:01 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:39:01 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504121151530030bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>
	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>
	<425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>	<425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>
	<425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com>	<425C0500.1060902@aracnet.com>
	<425C0AA8.3010901@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504121151530030bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425C31E5.9050206@aracnet.com>

I bow to my elders!  :-)

George Moschovitis wrote:

>I tend to agree with James. I think using .xhtml as the extension was
>a bit unfortunate.
>On the positive side, we can still change this to something more neutral :)
>
>-g.
>
>On Apr 12, 2005 8:51 PM, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>   Exactly.  Most template based generation is like that, right?  I'll
>>>vote for xhtml then.  :-)
>>>      
>>>
>>I'll leave it to you, then, to explain to the puzzled (such as myself)
>>why the .xhtml source files are not XHTML, nor do they result in XHTML,
>>and appear to have no actual relation to XHTML.
>>
>>Most general-purpose templating systems use a neutral file extension
>>(e.g. .PHP, .ASP), intended to identify the processing application
>>rather than than any arbitrary output format.
>>
>>James
>>_______________________________________________
>>Nitro-general mailing list
>>Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
>>http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>
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From james_b at neurogami.com  Tue Apr 12 16:56:02 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:56:02 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] AOP with nitro
In-Reply-To: <425C31E5.9050206@aracnet.com>
References: <afd80b5405041107164800f1f1@mail.gmail.com>	<425AA4B3.6010409@navel.gr>	<425AAA38.6000801@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504112156663d0402@mail.gmail.com>	<425B5ACD.6060204@aracnet.com>	<425B61A7.2020808@neurogami.com>	<425BFB9D.1070800@aracnet.com>	<425C0086.3010406@neurogami.com>	<425C0500.1060902@aracnet.com>	<425C0AA8.3010901@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504121151530030bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<425C31E5.9050206@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <425C35E2.6050706@neurogami.com>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>    I bow to my elders!  :-)

Watch your step, you whippersnapper!

Damn kids today ...



James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 05:16:23 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:16:23 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>

> Perhaps this could be replaced with something that first tries to
> populate the object by passing a block to klass.new.

ok, but where does this block come from?

when reading (deserializing) an object from the store (rdbms) I dont want 
to call the constructor at all. Perhaps there is a method to allocate the object
without calling klass.new. I think this was added in 1.8.2

I 'll investigate.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 05:27:47 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:27:47 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>

> I 'll investigate.

Not much to investigate:

ri Class#allocate

--------------------------------------------------------- Class#allocate
     class.allocate()   =>   obj
------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Allocates space for a new object of _class_'s class. The returned
     object must be an instance of _class_.


so i replaced klass.new with klass.allocate and the initialize method
is not called.
the object gets correctly restored by og_read, and there are no
restirction for your initialize method. What do you think James? I
think this solves your problem nicely.

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Wed Apr 13 09:35:00 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 06:35:00 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>Perhaps this could be replaced with something that first tries to
>>populate the object by passing a block to klass.new.
> 
> 
> ok, but where does this block come from?

In the Og code, as part of the routing that creates an object.  The 
current code lops over a hash of properties/values and uses that to set 
object values.  That assignment can happen in a block.
> 
> when reading (deserializing) an object from the store (rdbms) I dont want 
> to call the constructor at all. Perhaps there is a method to allocate the object
> without calling klass.new. I think this was added in 1.8.2

YAML and Marshal can deserialize without calling the constructor.  But 
there is the question of whether serialization is meant to preserve 
specific objects, or a set of values, and if deserialzation is meant to 
  recreate previous objects, or create new objects with pre-existing values.

If new objects are to be created, then calling initialize is perhaps the 
better path because it allows for the object to create any required 
internal state as well as do a sanity check on on the data used.

If pre-existing objects are to be used, then one has to guard against 
other processes altering the database.

James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 09:41:40 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:41:40 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041306416c228696@mail.gmail.com>

> If pre-existing objects are to be used, then one has to guard against
> other processes altering the database.

I think the constructor should not be called when deserializing the
object. An object that is serialized in the database is allready
intialized and in the correct state. I think using klass.allocate is
the 'right thing',

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Wed Apr 13 09:45:16 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 06:45:16 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>I 'll investigate.
> 
> 
> Not much to investigate:
> 
> ri Class#allocate
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------- Class#allocate
>      class.allocate()   =>   obj
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      Allocates space for a new object of _class_'s class. The returned
>      object must be an instance of _class_.
> 
> 
> so i replaced klass.new with klass.allocate and the initialize method
> is not called.
> the object gets correctly restored by og_read, and there are no
> restirction for your initialize method. What do you think James? I
> think this solves your problem nicely.

Class Foo
  attr_accessors :x, :y
  def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
    @x=x
    @y=y
    @tstamp = Time.now
  end

  def create_date
   @tstamp
  end

end


Question: If you do not call Foo.new, how is @tstamp initialized to the 
time of creation?

My main point is that 'initialize' is where an object makes sure it is 
starting life on the right foot.  It is the best place to assure that it 
has correct, complete, consistent data.  If you override calling 'new', 
then an object may be created with invalid state.



James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 09:48:16 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:48:16 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>

> Question: If you do not call Foo.new, how is @tstamp initialized to the
> time of creation?

No, I call Foo.new when the object is created:

f = Foo.new
f.save
oid = f.oid

then when I reload f:

fr = Foo[oid]

the read method in Og should NOT call initialize again...
It should call Foo.allocate and the fill in the serialized attributes
using og_read.
This is the correct behaviour I think.

-g.



-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Wed Apr 13 10:35:42 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:35:42 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041306416c228696@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041306416c228696@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425D2E3E.2060101@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>If pre-existing objects are to be used, then one has to guard against
>>other processes altering the database.
> 
> 
> I think the constructor should not be called when deserializing the
> object. An object that is serialized in the database is allready
> intialized and in the correct state. I think using klass.allocate is
> the 'right thing',

Say I have an application, a blog, and I'm saving BlogEntries to a 
database.  The Nitro application itself may read and write to tables 
(via Og).  But so can other applications; in fact, I want other 
applications to be able to create or alter data. I see this as a feature.

But this open access means potentially invalid data can get in there.

When my Nitro app reads data and creates objects, I want to be sure the 
created objects are well-constructed.

What would be the overhead of saving an object's properties as simple 
data, but also using an extra field to store a YAML serialization, and 
having a means where client code can either create new objects based on 
values in the database, or revive existing objects from the saved 
serialization?

I can see where saving whole objects, intact, internal state and all, 
can be very handy.  So far, though, I've been thinking in terms of 
creating objects when needed, based on stored data.  If, in my blog app, 
I select a set of entries based on date or content, I do not expect to 
be getting back the same objects as previously created.

There are important differences in an application when it's "objects 
created from table data" versus "objects revived from serialization".

James

> 
> -g.
> 


-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From james_b at neurogami.com  Wed Apr 13 10:43:56 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:43:56 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>Question: If you do not call Foo.new, how is @tstamp initialized to the
>>time of creation?
> 
> 
> No, I call Foo.new when the object is created:
> 
> f = Foo.new
> f.save
> oid = f.oid
> 
> then when I reload f:
> 
> fr = Foo[oid]
> 
> the read method in Og should NOT call initialize again...
> It should call Foo.allocate and the fill in the serialized attributes
> using og_read.
> This is the correct behaviour I think.

That will not restore or set private variables.

f = Foo.allocate
p f.create_date # nil


James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Apr 13 11:35:15 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:35:15 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Please Make a Product / Project Website
Message-ID: <d3je1f$e9p$1@sea.gmane.org>

2 months before I was here to evaluate nitro, but I stopped the evaluation.

Now I'm basicly here for OG.

But still I'm not confident, if I should even evaluate it.

I saw some people from www.navel.gr joining here, but none cares that 
the companies website is not up to date (2 years).

OG has not even a simple product webpage.

Everything seems a little like "fuzzy development" - and I'm not sure if 
this is the right way to produce a critical software-core, which should 
handle large amounts of data.

Please:

  * Productize OG (e.g.: own project on rubyforge, website (or section))
  * Use user feedback, especially the critical one
  * Take evaluators "by their hand" and guide them thrugh a evaluation

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From daniel at bovensiepen.net  Wed Apr 13 12:35:53 2005
From: daniel at bovensiepen.net (Daniel Bovensiepen)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:35:53 +0200
Subject: [Nitro] is there a 'is_valid_property?' in og?
Message-ID: <BE831709.299D%daniel@bovensiepen.net>

 Hi together,

I'm searching a valid method which check a given value. I don't want to add
the value to the og-object first. what I'm looking for is a method like:

 myOgObject.is_valid_name?('daniel')
 => true

of course it returns only true if the validate_format from the property
'name' is similarly to /^[\w]{1,20}$/
is there some method which can do this already? or is the only way to check
a value calling the 'valid?' method?


Mfg
daniel




From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 15:16:48 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:16:48 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425D2E3E.2060101@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041306416c228696@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D2E3E.2060101@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050413121631c51380@mail.gmail.com>

> applications to be able to create or alter data. I see this as a feature.

ok...

> When my Nitro app reads data and creates objects, I want to be sure the
> created objects are well-constructed.

you can add a og post-read callback to validate the object. (In the
next version this will be much easier and powerful, thanks to the
aspects).
 
> What would be the overhead of saving an object's properties as simple
> data, but also using an extra field to store a YAML serialization, and
> ...
> values in the database, or revive existing objects from the saved
> serialization?

this feels wrong. You are duplicating the data. Plus there is another
problem. If you attach a yaml representation to every DBMS row, you
cant have constant length records (which are much faster to traverse
by the DBMS system).

BTW, I think it is wrong to call the initialize method when an object
is deserialized. In the initialize method I may put code that should
be called when the object is initialized, ie created for the first
time. For example I could have code for reference counting in the
constructor:

def initialize 
  Statistics.num_of_blogs += 1
end

It would be bad to force this code executed every time the object was
deserialised.

If you want to ensure a valid state for your object you could do the
following (some 0.16.0 concepts here):

class MyObject

  # 0.16.0 aspect to intercept lifecycle callback
  post :make_valid, :on => og_read

  def initialize(...)
     ...
     make_valid
     ...
  end

  def make_valid
    # ensure a valid state for the object
  end

end

then make_valid is called after (post) each object is deserialized (read) from
the DBMS.

does this make sense to you?

George.



-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 15:17:45 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:17:45 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>
	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>

> f = Foo.allocate
> p f.create_date # nil

og_read restores f.create_data so it is NOT nil.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 15:20:48 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:20:48 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] is there a 'is_valid_property?' in og?
In-Reply-To: <BE831709.299D%daniel@bovensiepen.net>
References: <BE831709.299D%daniel@bovensiepen.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050413122038065a4f@mail.gmail.com>

>  myOgObject.is_valid_name?('daniel')
>  => true

Hmm even though the existing .valid? function works great in practice,
I 'll try to add the methods you suggest. Thanks for the tip.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Wed Apr 13 17:04:59 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:04:59 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>f = Foo.allocate
>>p f.create_date # nil
> 
> 
> og_read restores f.create_data so it is NOT nil.

Yes, currently, because og_read calls new.  But using allocate in place 
of new will bypass the initialization of @tstamp

Example:

class Foo
   attr_accessor  :x, :y
   def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
      @x = x
      @y = y
      @tstamp = Time.new
   end

   def create_date
      @tstamp
   end

end

f = Foo.allocate
p f.create_date # nil


James


From james_b at neurogami.com  Wed Apr 13 19:05:11 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:05:11 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050413121631c51380@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041122019fda66e@mail.gmail.com>	<425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041306416c228696@mail.gmail.com>	<425D2E3E.2060101@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b54050413121631c51380@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425DA5A7.3090307@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>applications to be able to create or alter data. I see this as a feature.
> 
> 
> ok...
> 
> 
>>When my Nitro app reads data and creates objects, I want to be sure the
>>created objects are well-constructed.
> 
> 
> you can add a og post-read callback to validate the object. (In the
> next version this will be much easier and powerful, thanks to the
> aspects).

I think the central issue is, How much code has to be changed or added 
in order to get some sort of persistence and automatic object creation.

The other issue is, what is being saved/retrieved: objects or data?

>  
> 
>>What would be the overhead of saving an object's properties as simple
>>data, but also using an extra field to store a YAML serialization, and
>>...
>>values in the database, or revive existing objects from the saved
>>serialization?
> 
> 
> this feels wrong. You are duplicating the data. Plus there is another
> problem. If you attach a yaml representation to every DBMS row, you
> cant have constant length records (which are much faster to traverse
> by the DBMS system).

Yeah, I'm not crazy about the idea.  It solves some problems, but it's a 
hack.

> 
> BTW, I think it is wrong to call the initialize method when an object
> is deserialized. In the initialize method I may put code that should
> be called when the object is initialized, ie created for the first
> time. 

This is an important issue, though.  When a row is retrieved from a 
table, is it to restore a specific object, or to drive the creation of a 
new object?  The later is not deserialization (to my mind), and leaves 
open the idea that the data  may come from a variety of sources.

So, yes, with deserialization one should not be calling the constructor, 
but objecting to calling 'new' presumes that deserialization, rather 
than object creation, is the goal.


> For example I could have code for reference counting in the
> constructor:
> 
> def initialize 
>   Statistics.num_of_blogs += 1
> end
> 
> It would be bad to force this code executed every time the object was
> deserialised.
> 
> If you want to ensure a valid state for your object you could do the
> following (some 0.16.0 concepts here):
> 
> class MyObject
> 
>   # 0.16.0 aspect to intercept lifecycle callback
>   post :make_valid, :on => og_read
> 
>   def initialize(...)
>      ...
>      make_valid
>      ...
>   end
> 
>   def make_valid
>     # ensure a valid state for the object
>   end
> 
> end
> 
> then make_valid is called after (post) each object is deserialized (read) from
> the DBMS.
> 
> does this make sense to you?

Sort of, but not in a way I like.  I have this mental model around 
Nitro/Og, where one can write an application in the simplest form, and 
not have to commit to design or code idioms mandated by the framework, 
until such time that the need arises.  And when such changes are 
required, that they are minimal or automatic  by virtue of 
meta-programming.

If I'm designing an application, with no presupposition abut what data 
will be saved, then I'm probably going to build classes with initialize 
methods designed to enforce constraints.

If, later I decide to Oggify some classes, I would prefer to make as few 
changes as possible.  Changing attr_* to prop_* is trivial, and there is 
a clear need for it.    Having to rework the constructor, and add new 
methods that only make sense when used with Og, seems more burdensome.

It may be that, in order to get a fair level of robust O/R, assorted 
concession have to be made.  I just want to be sure they are small.

An alternative to using a block to instantiate am object is to require 
persisted classes to use a hash (i.e. named arguments) as the sole 
argument, and og_read or whatever would then create this hash from the 
table data and pass this into new.

This still does not allow quite enough freedom in class design; I may 
want a class that requires certain arguments, but also exposes 
properties that are only set though methods, not the constructor.  So 
code would still need to call all the attribute setters.

For what its worth, I'm somewhat skeptical of saving and restoring 
objects as objects, rather than creating new objects from saved data, 
because I think you end up trying to have a virtual object database that 
has to sit atop assorted relational databases. On the other hand (of 
course), I'm intrigued by the idea of a framework that completely hides 
the notion of any relation database underpining; you just code as if all 
you have are objects, and saving restoring deals with specific objects, 
not relational data.

James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 03:19:53 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:19:53 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>

> > og_read restores f.create_data so it is NOT nil.
> Yes, currently, because og_read calls new.  But using allocate in place
> of new will bypass the initialization of @tstamp

no, no...

after klass.allocate, og_read is called. og_read SETS the timestamp
to the correct value! I have tested this. It works correctly.

-g.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 03:30:07 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:30:07 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425DA5A7.3090307@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com> <425B67DF.10203@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D2004.6080802@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041306416c228696@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D2E3E.2060101@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b54050413121631c51380@mail.gmail.com>
	<425DA5A7.3090307@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050414003014f14847@mail.gmail.com>

> The other issue is, what is being saved/retrieved: objects or data?

Objects are saved, but objects are ALLREADY intialized. You dont have
to initialize
the object EVERY time you read the object from the database.

> This is an important issue, though.  When a row is retrieved from a
> table, is it to restore a specific object, or to drive the creation of a

it restores a new object.

> new object?  The later is not deserialization (to my mind), and leaves
> open the idea that the data  may come from a variety of sources.

yeap, this is not deserialization, thats my point. Og does deserialization.
your idea is interesting though. But I guess if this other source follows
some convention it will work with the existing model.
 
> So, yes, with deserialization one should not be calling the constructor,
> but objecting to calling 'new' presumes that deserialization, rather
> than object creation, is the goal.

yeap deserialization is the goal, i think it makes sense :)

> a clear need for it.    Having to rework the constructor, and add new
> methods that only make sense when used with Og, seems more burdensome.

:( I dont understand you. Og now uses klass.allocate, so Og is
indifferent to the constructor. you can have any constructor you want.
You dont have to make a 'special' constructor for Og.

> For what its worth, I'm somewhat skeptical of saving and restoring
> objects as objects, rather than creating new objects from saved data,
> because I think you end up trying to have a virtual object database that
> has to sit atop assorted relational databases. 

yeap but the relational database is created automatically for you.
That thing aside,
I plan to add some form of 'reverse engineering' of existing schemas
in Og. This is very easy to do.

> On the other hand (of course), I'm intrigued by the idea of a framework that 
> completely hides the notion of any relation database underpining; you just code as if all
> you have are objects, and saving restoring deals with specific objects,
> not relational data.

this is what Og tries to do.

BTW, I still have the feeling I dont understand your point correctly.
Perhaps we could better discuss this on IRC. How about freenode
#nitro_og ??


regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ak at navel.gr  Thu Apr 14 03:36:39 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:36:39 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Please Make a Product / Project Website
In-Reply-To: <d3je1f$e9p$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3je1f$e9p$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <425E1D87.5000206@navel.gr>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> 2 months before I was here to evaluate nitro, but I stopped the 
> evaluation.
>
> Now I'm basicly here for OG.
>
> But still I'm not confident, if I should even evaluate it.
>
> I saw some people from www.navel.gr joining here, but none cares that 
> the companies website is not up to date (2 years).

Yes, this is because we're trying to cope with OG/Nitro development and 
support of its open source release. We prefer to produce code and 
implement our desing ideas rather than creating a flashy display for 
selling our company our ourselves.

But you're right, we _deserve_ a better web site and it's on the top of 
our todo list!

enJOY,
Tasos

>
> OG has not even a simple product webpage.
>
> Everything seems a little like "fuzzy development" - and I'm not sure 
> if this is the right way to produce a critical software-core, which 
> should handle large amounts of data.
>
> Please:
>
>  * Productize OG (e.g.: own project on rubyforge, website (or section))
>  * Use user feedback, especially the critical one
>  * Take evaluators "by their hand" and guide them thrugh a evaluation
>
> .
>


-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 14 10:31:44 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:31:44 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041205462869b6e8@mail.gmail.com>	<425BD329.2010809@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>>og_read restores f.create_data so it is NOT nil.
>>
>>Yes, currently, because og_read calls new.  But using allocate in place
>>of new will bypass the initialization of @tstamp
> 
> 
> no, no...
> 
> after klass.allocate, og_read is called. og_read SETS the timestamp
> to the correct value! I have tested this. It works correctly.
> 
> -g.
> 
> 

Where does og_read get this value?  It should hold the value of when the 
object created (i.e. when populated with database content).

Here's my Og version of the example

class Foo
   prop_accessor  :x, Integer
   prop_accessor  :y, Integer

   def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
      @x = x || 0
      @y = y || 0
      @tstamp = Time.new
   end

   def create_date
      @tstamp
   end

end


What value would create_date return after og_read?

James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 10:38:10 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:38:10 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>
	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>

> What value would create_date return after og_read?

Here is the workflow:

f = Foo.new
f.tstamp # => Time.now 

# now lets save this:

f.save

# => INSERT INTO og_foo (..., tstamp, ...) VALUES (..., TimeStampAsSql, ...)

now you read the object back:

f = Foo[foo_oid]

this calls read_one:

read_one first allocates the object:

obj = klass.allocate

and then calls og_read for the object 

obj.og_read(res, 0)

now you have the correct TimeStamp:

f.tstamp # => The original timestamp.

am I missing something ?

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ak at navel.gr  Thu Apr 14 11:11:06 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:11:06 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425E880A.2090903@navel.gr>

George Moschovitis wrote:

>>What value would create_date return after og_read?
>>    
>>
>
>Here is the workflow:
>
>f = Foo.new
>f.tstamp # => Time.now 
>
># now lets save this:
>
>f.save
>
># => INSERT INTO og_foo (..., tstamp, ...) VALUES (..., TimeStampAsSql, ...)
>
>now you read the object back:
>
>f = Foo[foo_oid]
>
>this calls read_one:
>
>read_one first allocates the object:
>
>obj = klass.allocate
>
>and then calls og_read for the object 
>
>obj.og_read(res, 0)
>
>now you have the correct TimeStamp:
>
>f.tstamp # => The original timestamp.
>
>am I missing something ?
>  
>
i think you're missing the fact that tstamp is just a class variable, 
not a prop_* variable!

james is right in the fact that we should allow for internal class 
variables to be persisted some way.

but you're right saying that initialised should _not_ be used when 
restoring an object from the backend.

/t.

>regards,
>George.
>
>  
>


-- 
Navel Ltd
http://www.navel.gr - info at navel.gr - +30 210 6898050

Have fun: www.joy.gr/  and create: www.navel.gr/nitro



From paulha at aracnet.com  Thu Apr 14 12:03:04 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:03:04 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425E880A.2090903@navel.gr>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E880A.2090903@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <425E9438.6000304@aracnet.com>


Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:

> i think you're missing the fact that tstamp is just a class variable, 
> not a prop_* variable!
>
> james is right in the fact that we should allow for internal class 
> variables to be persisted some way.
>
> but you're right saying that initialised should _not_ be used when 
> restoring an object from the backend.

So, if you persist a class variable when do you do it?  At different 
times in the life of the class it may have different values which are 
not related to any instance values saved.  It definitely should not be 
saved and restored as part of any particular instance value!

One solution might be to encapsulate class values into a class of their 
own, and persist *that* class as a singleton.

Paul



From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 14 12:28:23 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:28:23 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425E880A.2090903@navel.gr>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E880A.2090903@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <425E9A27.3060209@neurogami.com>

Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:
>>
> i think you're missing the fact that tstamp is just a class variable, 
> not a prop_* variable!

No, it's  an instance variable.  It's read-only, and not marked for 
persistence, as the whole point is that it gets instantiated by process, 
not client assignment.

> 
> james is right in the fact that we should allow for internal class 
> variables to be persisted some way.

I do not want certain instance values saved, as they may be derived data 
or related to specific circumstances (such as the time a particular 
instance is created).

> 
> but you're right saying that initialised should _not_ be used when 
> restoring an object from the backend.

I think there is confusion over the use of the word 'restore'.  If the 
idea is to revive a previously-existing object (similar in spirit to 
YAML.load( yml ), then do not call initialize.

If the the idea is use data (which may or may not have come from a 
previously existing object) to drive the creation of objects, then 
initialize may be needed because that is where internal state may set up 
and validity checks performed.

If I understand George, any such internal initialization  and state 
validation logic performed at object creation would have to be moved to 
another method that gets called by Og during og_read.


James


From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 14 13:13:54 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:13:54 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041302162cb0ec08@mail.gmail.com>	<afd80b5405041302276d556452@mail.gmail.com>	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425EA4D2.8030701@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>What value would create_date return after og_read?
> 
> 
> Here is the workflow:
> 
> f = Foo.new
> f.tstamp # => Time.now 
> 
> # now lets save this:
> 
> f.save
> 
> # => INSERT INTO og_foo (..., tstamp, ...) VALUES (..., TimeStampAsSql, ...)

Why is tstamp being saved?

Here's a variation:

class Foo
   attr_accessor  :x, :y
   def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
      @x = x
      @y = y
      @tstamp = Time.new
   end

   def is_too_old?
      t = Time.now
      ( t.to_i - @tstamp.to_i > 1000000 )
   end

end

How can @tstamp be saved or set?


I believe, then, that under Og, this must become something like:

   def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
      @x = x
      @y = y
      post_og_read
   end

   def post_og_read
      @tstamp = Time.new
      # maybe also validate values of @x and @y
   end

James


From daniel at bovensiepen.net  Thu Apr 14 13:25:16 2005
From: daniel at bovensiepen.net (Daniel Bovensiepen)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:25:16 +0200
Subject: [Nitro] is there a 'is_valid_property?' in og?
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050413122038065a4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE84741C.2A95%daniel@bovensiepen.net>

Maybe i didn't know the complete function of valid..
I just want to check a value against the validate functions in an og
object..

If i add all values to the og object and ask the object '.valid?' it returns
a list with the errors. Then i can ask something like 'count' and i get the
numbers of errors but i didn't get the information -> is this value valid? I
only get the info that some property is not valid.
Is there a way to check the error-list for a specific property? If yes my
problem were solved.


Am 13.04.2005 21:20 Uhr schrieb "George Moschovitis" unter
<george.moschovitis at gmail.com>:

>>  myOgObject.is_valid_name?('daniel')
>>  => true
> 
> Hmm even though the existing .valid? function works great in practice,
> I 'll try to add the methods you suggest. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> regards,
> George.




From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 13:59:00 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:59:00 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425E9A27.3060209@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E880A.2090903@navel.gr> <425E9A27.3060209@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041410595af52e05@mail.gmail.com>

> No, it's  an instance variable.  It's read-only, and not marked for
> persistence, as the whole point is that it gets instantiated by process,
> not client assignment.

ok, didn't see that, sorry.

> I think there is confusion over the use of the word 'restore'.  If the
> idea is to revive a previously-existing object (similar in spirit to
> YAML.load( yml ), then do not call initialize.

Og read is like Yaml.load(). It restores a previously existing object.
 

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 13:59:52 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:59:52 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425EA4D2.8030701@neurogami.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com> <425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<425EA4D2.8030701@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041410595d49da75@mail.gmail.com>

class Foo
  prop_accessor :x, :y # properties to be saved


> Here's a variation:
> 
> class Foo
>    attr_accessor  :x, :y
>    def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
>       @x = x
>       @y = y
>       @tstamp = Time.new
>    end
> 
>    def is_too_old?
>       t = Time.now
>       ( t.to_i - @tstamp.to_i > 1000000 )
>    end
> 
> end
> 
> How can @tstamp be saved or set?
> 
> I believe, then, that under Og, this must become something like:
> 
>    def initialize( x=nil, y=nil )
>       @x = x
>       @y = y
>       post_og_read
>    end
> 
>    def post_og_read
>       @tstamp = Time.new
>       # maybe also validate values of @x and @y
>    end
> 
> James
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 14:11:10 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:11:10 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041410595d49da75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>
	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>
	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<425EA4D2.8030701@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041410595d49da75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504141111675038d9@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for that, let me try again...

class Foo
  prop_accessor :x, :y # save those attributes
  attr_accessor :calc # don't save this attribute can be calculated from x,y

  def initalize(x, y)
    @x, @y = x, y
    
    # i want the mail sent only when creating the object
    mail('gm at navel.gr', 'Hey, a new foo was created')

    # lets create a variable from x, y
    # as it can be calculated there is no need to save this

    @calc = @x * @y
end

obviously you dont want to call the initialize method every time the
object is read (== deserialized) from the database. But you need to to
generate the @calc variable after reading to have a valid Foo object.
Og needs some help here. Og cannot decide alone how to skip the mail
and just generate calc. So we give Og a hint:

class Foo
  ...

  post(:on => :og_read) { |this| this.calc = this.x * this.y }
  # or more efficiently:
  post "@calc = @x * @y", :on => :og_read
end

with this tip Og does the following when reading the object:

f = Foo.allocate
f.og_read 

where Foo#og_read does the following:

def og_read(res)
  @x = res['x']
  @y = res['y']
  @calc = @x * @y
end

please note that Og automatically generates og_read. So you really
only need to add one line of code to make Og handle your class. Plus
you are free to design the initialize method as you like. Even better
I suggest to do some refactoring:

class Foo
  def initialize(x,y)
    @x, @y = x, y
  end

  def do_calc
    @calc = @x * @y
  end

  post :do_calc, :on => [ :initialize, :og_read ]
end

please note, this uses the AOP features in 0.16.0   

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 14:18:09 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:18:09 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] is there a 'is_valid_property?' in og?
In-Reply-To: <BE84741C.2A95%daniel@bovensiepen.net>
References: <afd80b54050413122038065a4f@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE84741C.2A95%daniel@bovensiepen.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041411187f5f44c3@mail.gmail.com>

> Is there a way to check the error-list for a specific property? If yes my
> problem were solved.

of course:

unless user.valid?
  p user.errors[:name]
  # or
  p user.errors.on(:name)
end

perhaps I should add a method like:

p user.valid?(:name)

as a helper...


-g.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From daniel at bovensiepen.net  Thu Apr 14 14:23:51 2005
From: daniel at bovensiepen.net (Daniel Bovensiepen)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:23:51 +0200
Subject: [Nitro] is there a 'is_valid_property?' in og?
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041411187f5f44c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE8481D7.2AB2%daniel@bovensiepen.net>

Oh thats great for the moment..
Thanks a lot..


Am 14.04.2005 20:18 Uhr schrieb "George Moschovitis" unter
<george.moschovitis at gmail.com>:

>> Is there a way to check the error-list for a specific property? If yes my
>> problem were solved.
> 
> of course:
> 
> unless user.valid?
>   p user.errors[:name]
>   # or
>   p user.errors.on(:name)
> end
> 
> perhaps I should add a method like:
> 
> p user.valid?(:name)
> 
> as a helper...
> 
> 
> -g.
> 




From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 14 17:34:34 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:34:34 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041410595d49da75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425AA8E2.7000204@neurogami.com>
	<425D226C.7090708@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504130648118435aa@mail.gmail.com>	<425D302C.40700@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504131217724ec967@mail.gmail.com>	<425D897B.5040900@neurogami.com>	<afd80b5405041400191f6ae050@mail.gmail.com>	<425E7ED0.7050404@neurogami.com>	<afd80b540504140738277967e5@mail.gmail.com>	<425EA4D2.8030701@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b5405041410595d49da75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425EE1EA.2020201@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> class Foo
>   prop_accessor :x, :y # properties to be saved


Right; I was focusing on code changes needed to do state validation and 
re-initialization after an og_read, where the code in 'initialize' would 
not get called.

James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Thu Apr 14 19:09:44 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:09:44 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
Message-ID: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>

I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an sqlite3.

I retrieve this object.

[the table was created, and I load the object back]

-

In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.

I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.

but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.

[the new property i've added]

-

How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Thu Apr 14 21:38:25 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:38:25 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] Concerns over Og mandating the form of initialize
In-Reply-To: <425E9A27.3060209@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504150434310.27269-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

>
> If the the idea is use data (which may or may not have come from a
> previously existing object) to drive the creation of objects, then
> initialize may be needed because that is where internal state may set up
> and validity checks performed.

I believe I understand. Lets say I use Nitro to make a DB, then edit the
DB outside Nitro, with lets say phpMyAdmin, or directly with SQL and I
add a column, or a new table to my DB, then run my Nitro application again.

What happens then... (rough example)...?

James I understand your concerns. My reply would be that the "Nitro
Concept" is to do everything through Nitro. In that case there would be no
problem.... I guess...


Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 00:59:48 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:59:48 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>

If you are designing your application just drop the database and let
og create the tables again. If you your application is live (in
production) you have to manually alter the table.

An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to automatically
alter the table to much the updated class definition. I 'll
reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps someone can send me a
patch).

regards,
George.

On 4/15/05, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias at lazaridis.com> wrote:
> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an sqlite3.
> 
> I retrieve this object.
> 
> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
> 
> -
> 
> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
> 
> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
> 
> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
> 
> [the new property i've added]
> 
> -
> 
> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
> class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).
> 
> .
> 
> --
> http://lazaridis.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Fri Apr 15 01:44:29 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:44:29 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3nk5b$qi3$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> If you are designing your application just drop the database and let
> og create the tables again. 

this is inconvenient.

> If you your application is live (in
> production) you have to manually alter the table.

inconvenient, too.

> An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to automatically
> alter the table to much the updated class definition. I 'll
> reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps someone can send me a
> patch).

this functionality is essential.

I mean, why do I use a dynamic language?

I hope this can be re-implemented soon, at least for simple 
modifications, like "add property", "remove property" or "change 
property type/size" etc.

And: objects should have a flag, which disallows automated 
table-alterations.

> regards,
> George.
> 
> On 4/15/05, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias at lazaridis.com> wrote:
> 
>>I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an sqlite3.
>>
>>I retrieve this object.
>>
>>[the table was created, and I load the object back]
>>
>>-
>>
>>In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
>>
>>I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
>>
>>but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
>>
>>[the new property i've added]
>>
>>-
>>
>>How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>>class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).
>>
>>.
>>
>>--
>>http://lazaridis.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Nitro-general mailing list
>>Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
>>http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>>
> 
> 
> 


-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 02:32:05 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:32:05 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d3nk5b$qi3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3nk5b$qi3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>

> > If you are designing your application just drop the database and let
> > og create the tables again.
> this is inconvenient.

not at all... takes 5 seconds.

> > If you your application is live (in
> > production) you have to manually alter the table.
> inconvenient, too.

well I agree, (but it takes about a min)

> > An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to automatically
> > alter the table to much the updated class definition. I 'll
> > reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps someone can send me a
> > patch).
> this functionality is essential.

I agree...

> I hope this can be re-implemented soon, at least for simple
> modifications, like "add property", "remove property" or "change
> property type/size" etc.

Will do :)

thanks for the tips.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Fri Apr 15 06:22:24 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:22:24 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504151317320.11715-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

My question is, it seems that "many" are demanding things from G. instead
of offering usefull advice. Are we all donating for Nitro? and we have the
luxury of demanding features? Or should we realize that Nitro is for free,
and our comments are just "comments", aiming to in to improve
Nitro...!?

Just a suggestion... Right?

> > > If you are designing your application just drop the database and let
> > > og create the tables again.
> > this is inconvenient.
>
> not at all... takes 5 seconds.
>
> > > If you your application is live (in
> > > production) you have to manually alter the table.
> > inconvenient, too.
>
> well I agree, (but it takes about a min)
>
> > > An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to automatically
> > > alter the table to much the updated class definition. I 'll
> > > reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps someone can send me a
> > > patch).
> > this functionality is essential.
>
> I agree...
>
> > I hope this can be re-implemented soon, at least for simple
> > modifications, like "add property", "remove property" or "change
> > property type/size" etc.
>
> Will do :)
>
> thanks for the tips.
>
> -g.
>
> --
> http://nitro.rubyforge.org
> http://www.joy.gr
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>

Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Fri Apr 15 20:46:00 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 03:46:00 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504151317320.11715-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0504151317320.11715-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <d3pn1e$act$1@sea.gmane.org>

Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:
> My question is, it seems that "many" are demanding things from G. 
> instead of offering usefull advice.

[you should write below the content]

> Are we all donating for Nitro?

Personally, I am donating time for a beta-state product.

> and we have the luxury of demanding features?

of course.

If you are able to stop this ridiculous "demanding" tenor (which sadly
is common within open source project).

It is better to have 'demanding' users (whatever 'demanding' means) than 
silent users.

> Or should we realize that Nitro is for free, and our comments are 
> just "comments", aiming to in to improve Nitro...!?

Nitro is not for free.

one has (like with any open-source software) to invest time and effort.

> Just a suggestion... Right?

you should possibly update the terribly outdated navel.gr website,
instead of posting "just suggestions".

>>>> If you are designing your application just drop the database 
>>>> and let og create the tables again.
>>> 
>>> this is inconvenient.
>> 
>> not at all... takes 5 seconds.
>> 
>> 
>>>> If you your application is live (in production) you have to 
>>>> manually alter the table.
>>> 
>>> inconvenient, too.
>> 
>> well I agree, (but it takes about a min)
>> 
>> 
>>>> An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to 
>>>> automatically alter the table to much the updated class 
>>>> definition. I 'll reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps 
>>>> someone can send me a patch).
>>> 
>>> this functionality is essential.
>> 
>> I agree...
>> 
>> 
>>> I hope this can be re-implemented soon, at least for simple 
>>> modifications, like "add property", "remove property" or "change
>>>  property type/size" etc.
>> 
>> Will do :)
>> 
>> thanks for the tips.
>> 
>> -g.
>> 
>> -- http://nitro.rubyforge.org http://www.joy.gr
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Nitro-general 
>> mailing list Nitro-general at rubyforge.org 
>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>> 
> 
> 
> Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr) {To explore is Human, to 
> Create is Devine, To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}


-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr  Fri Apr 15 23:38:25 2005
From: epiperak at softlab.ece.ntua.gr (Emmanuel Piperakis)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:38:25 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: [Nitro] ...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504160616110.12372-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>

Well, it is matter of perspective. I can write on top or under... I gues
it is up to me.
>>> [you should write below the content]

Time is irrelevant. Only life is...
>Personally, I am donating time for a beta-state product.

No. And if I undestand what you are saying correctly your goal it to stop
the ridiculous demanding tenor of what?
>of course.
>If you are able to stop this ridiculous "demanding" tenor (which sadly is
>common within open source project).

Actually is is better to have innovative and creative users, than
judgemental, critisizing ones..
>It is better to have 'demanding' users (whatever 'demanding' means) than
>silent users.

I am not responsible for navel.gr, and I spend my time creating and
publishing instead of rewriting my cv and updating my web page. Well, some
of us have actually the responsibility to create, while other just to
evaluate. This reminds me of Mozart and Salieri, with the only differnce
that at least Salieri was able to understand the talent of Mozart, where
in your case you can not even grasp to understand the innovations in
Nitro. In order to "evaluate" you must first create! Think about that.

Anyway, I have a feeling that you draw some kind of perverted pleasure
from these emails, so I will let you to it... Keep up the good comments,
and the great evaluation, and thank you for your precious time.
> you should possibly update the terribly outdated navel.gr website,
> instead of posting "just suggestions".


Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
 To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}



From paulha at aracnet.com  Sat Apr 16 12:50:21 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:50:21 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504160616110.12372-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504160616110.12372-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <4261424D.4090402@aracnet.com>

Sometimes the best strategy is to ignore "unhelpful" postings.  Creates 
no ire, and teaches what the group is interested in...  :O)

Paul

Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:

>Well, it is matter of perspective. I can write on top or under... I gues
>it is up to me.
>  
>
>>>>[you should write below the content]
>>>>        
>>>>
>
>Time is irrelevant. Only life is...
>  
>
>>Personally, I am donating time for a beta-state product.
>>    
>>
>
>No. And if I undestand what you are saying correctly your goal it to stop
>the ridiculous demanding tenor of what?
>  
>
>>of course.
>>If you are able to stop this ridiculous "demanding" tenor (which sadly is
>>common within open source project).
>>    
>>
>
>Actually is is better to have innovative and creative users, than
>judgemental, critisizing ones..
>  
>
>>It is better to have 'demanding' users (whatever 'demanding' means) than
>>silent users.
>>    
>>
>
>I am not responsible for navel.gr, and I spend my time creating and
>publishing instead of rewriting my cv and updating my web page. Well, some
>of us have actually the responsibility to create, while other just to
>evaluate. This reminds me of Mozart and Salieri, with the only differnce
>that at least Salieri was able to understand the talent of Mozart, where
>in your case you can not even grasp to understand the innovations in
>Nitro. In order to "evaluate" you must first create! Think about that.
>
>Anyway, I have a feeling that you draw some kind of perverted pleasure
>from these emails, so I will let you to it... Keep up the good comments,
>and the great evaluation, and thank you for your precious time.
>  
>
>>you should possibly update the terribly outdated navel.gr website,
>>instead of posting "just suggestions".
>>    
>>
>
>
>Emmanouil Piperakis (epiperak at cs.ntua.gr)
>{To explore is Human, to Create is Devine,
> To teach is Primal, to Rule is Sin}
>
>_______________________________________________
>Nitro-general mailing list
>Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
>http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>
>  
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 16 14:24:12 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:24:12 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504160616110.12372-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504160616110.12372-100000@theseas.softlab.ece.ntua.gr>
Message-ID: <d3rl1a$bf9$1@sea.gmane.org>

Emmanuel Piperakis wrote:
[...]

sorry for not answering to your message.

I've just overflown it - and it looks not very relevant to my current task.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 16 14:28:48 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:28:48 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>	<afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>	<d3nk5b$qi3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3rl9v$c3a$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>>If you are designing your application just drop the database and let
>>>og create the tables again.
>>
>>this is inconvenient.
> 
> not at all... takes 5 seconds.

.

>>>If you your application is live (in
>>>production) you have to manually alter the table.
>>
>>inconvenient, too.
> 
> well I agree, (but it takes about a min)

.

>>>An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to automatically
>>>alter the table to much the updated class definition. I 'll
>>>reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps someone can send me a
>>>patch).
>>
>>this functionality is essential.
> 
> I agree...

ok, very nice.

>>I hope this can be re-implemented soon, at least for simple
>>modifications, like "add property", "remove property" or "change
>>property type/size" etc.
> 
> Will do :)

ok, very nice.

can you please tell me when you expect to have this included?

[I'm not yet ready to write code in ruby - otherwise I would contribute 
this or assist you]

> thanks for the tips.

you're welcome.

please let me know if you need further information, e.g. implementation 
suggestions.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From dan at zeraweb.com  Sun Apr 17 09:21:07 2005
From: dan at zeraweb.com (Dan Yoder)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:21:07 -0500
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d3rl9v$c3a$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>	<afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>	<d3nk5b$qi3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3rl9v$c3a$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <16f1af4591452ce3edaefa143ebc7be0@zeraweb.com>

All -

1. I think it needs be somewhat of a given that criticisms or questions 
or whatever have a built in disclaimer that, hey, it is great that this 
framework is being developed, and i would offer this as a patch or 
something if could, but I lack the time/understanding/etc. to do so ... 
G. has, I think, been very much in this spirit in handling all our 
"demands."

2. As to the feature request for add/remove property, I think the 
entire schema migration issue is crucial. Already, Og differentiates 
itself from any alternative Ruby persistence frameworks in the fact 
that it is driven from the Ruby model and will automatically create the 
required tables. Adding automatic schema migration (and appropriate 
exceptions in the cases where this results in loss of data or is 
ambiguous) would cement Og's position as the emerging premier 
persistence solution in Ruby.

3. That said, I've tried to build such a thing (not in Ruby, but ...) 
and it isn't easy to get right. (How do you handle a field name change, 
for example?) This is why some folks find the database-driven (instead 
of Ruby driven) approach so appealing. You make the change in the 
database and you're done. Of course, this only actually works for 
simple examples or if you start using views, etc. It is worth 
considering whether the work involved in defining a view is any 
different than simply manually adding or removing fields.

4. In other words, this is a really cool feature request, but I am not 
so sure it is a very high priority.

Just my two cents.

p.s. I do think at some point (probably soon, based on the downloads) 
it will become important for Nitro to upgrade its image (Web sites, 
etc.). I would imagine that's in G's master plan. Awhile back, he 
talked to this issue in a post, and if I recall correctly, there were a 
few releases coming with crucial features, at which point some effort 
was going to be put into documentation, etc.

---
Dan Yoder
cell: 512-699-9866
email: dan at zeraweb.com


On Apr 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> George Moschovitis wrote:
>>>> If you are designing your application just drop the database and let
>>>> og create the tables again.
>>>
>>> this is inconvenient.
>> not at all... takes 5 seconds.
>
> .
>
>>>> If you your application is live (in
>>>> production) you have to manually alter the table.
>>>
>>> inconvenient, too.
>> well I agree, (but it takes about a min)
>
> .
>
>>>> An older version of Og had an alter method that tried to 
>>>> automatically
>>>> alter the table to much the updated class definition. I 'll
>>>> reimplement this funtionality (or perhaps someone can send me a
>>>> patch).
>>>
>>> this functionality is essential.
>> I agree...
>
> ok, very nice.
>
>>> I hope this can be re-implemented soon, at least for simple
>>> modifications, like "add property", "remove property" or "change
>>> property type/size" etc.
>> Will do :)
>
> ok, very nice.
>
> can you please tell me when you expect to have this included?
>
> [I'm not yet ready to write code in ruby - otherwise I would 
> contribute this or assist you]
>
>> thanks for the tips.
>
> you're welcome.
>
> please let me know if you need further information, e.g. 
> implementation suggestions.
>
> .
>
> -- 
> http://lazaridis.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 09:37:08 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:37:08 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <16f1af4591452ce3edaefa143ebc7be0@zeraweb.com>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b540504142159245af67d@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3nk5b$qi3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405041423321132a8ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<d3rl9v$c3a$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<16f1af4591452ce3edaefa143ebc7be0@zeraweb.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041706374c4d4b0@mail.gmail.com>

> 2. As to the feature request for add/remove property, I think the
> entire schema migration issue is crucial. Already, Og differentiates
> ...
> ambiguous) would cement Og's position as the emerging premier
> persistence solution in Ruby.

don't worry, It will be done.
 
> few releases coming with crucial features, at which point some effort
> was going to be put into documentation, etc.

I plan to start working on more documentation in May. I want to work
over the last two weeks of April on some critical features and nail
down the API's first.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 03:58:45 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:58:45 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [ANN] Nitro + Og 0.16.0, AOP, TDD, Plain CGI,
	Code refactoring and more
Message-ID: <afd80b5405041800582c1ee993@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

A new version of Nitro was just released. You can downloaded the new  version
here:

http://rubyforge.org/frs/?group_id=418&release_id=2023

have fun,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 07:09:28 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:09:28 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Using facets with Nitro
Message-ID: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

In order to avoid reimplementing the wheel  I am thinking  about using
Facets to provide common functionality to Nitro applications. This 
means I 'll remove some utilities from Glue in order to use the
equivalent methods provided in Facets, and if possible donate some
utilities to the Facets project.

Any opinions on this?

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Mon Apr 18 09:07:20 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:07:20 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Using facets with Nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4263B108.6000307@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> In order to avoid reimplementing the wheel  I am thinking  about using
> Facets to provide common functionality to Nitro applications. This 
> means I 'll remove some utilities from Glue in order to use the
> equivalent methods provided in Facets, and if possible donate some
> utilities to the Facets project.
> 
> Any opinions on this?

I like the idea.

James


From kostas at nasis.com  Mon Apr 18 09:16:38 2005
From: kostas at nasis.com (Kostas Nasis)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:16:38 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Using facets with Nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4263B336.1050908@nasis.com>

I haven't looked at Facets, but I think this makes sense. How do they 
currently overlap? That is, what's in Glue that's also in Facets, and 
what's in Glue that isn't in Facets?

Kostas


George Moschovitis wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>In order to avoid reimplementing the wheel  I am thinking  about using
>Facets to provide common functionality to Nitro applications. This 
>means I 'll remove some utilities from Glue in order to use the
>equivalent methods provided in Facets, and if possible donate some
>utilities to the Facets project.
>
>Any opinions on this?
>
>regards,
>George.
>
>  
>



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 18 20:32:33 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:32:33 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Using facets with Nitro
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d41jbc$vhl$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> In order to avoid reimplementing the wheel  I am thinking  about using
> Facets to provide common functionality to Nitro applications. This 
> means I 'll remove some utilities from Glue in order to use the
> equivalent methods provided in Facets, and if possible donate some
> utilities to the Facets project.
> 
> Any opinions on this?

reuse is positive.

what is the license of product "facets"?

[please provide a pointer]

> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From alang at cronosys.com  Tue Apr 19 09:49:42 2005
From: alang at cronosys.com (Alan Garrison)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:49:42 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Using facets with Nitro
In-Reply-To: <d41jbc$vhl$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d41jbc$vhl$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <42650C76.7050703@cronosys.com>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>
> what is the license of product "facets"?
>
> [please provide a pointer]
>

http://calibre.rubyforge.org/facets/doc/index.html

-- 
Alan Garrison
Cronosys, LLC <http://www.cronosys.com>
Phone: 216-221-4600 ext 308




From ilias at lazaridis.com  Tue Apr 19 20:46:28 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 03:46:28 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Using facets with Nitro
In-Reply-To: <42650C76.7050703@cronosys.com>
References: <afd80b54050418040919a1880f@mail.gmail.com>	<d41jbc$vhl$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<42650C76.7050703@cronosys.com>
Message-ID: <d448h6$728$1@sea.gmane.org>

Alan Garrison wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>>
>> what is the license of product "facets"?
>>
>> [please provide a pointer]
>>
> 
> http://calibre.rubyforge.org/facets/doc/index.html

thank's a lot.

It looks to me, that commercial development would be allowed with 
ruby/nitro/facets:

http://calibre.rubyforge.org/facets/doc/files/LICENSE-RUBY.html

This must be clarified, to ensure the success of Nitro.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 21 03:24:56 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:24:56 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Javascript library
Message-ID: <afd80b540504210024761b5211@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I am planning to integrate a javascript library in the next version of
Nitro. The obvious candidate is Prototype but I was wondering if there
is a better suggestion. Any ideas?

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 21 03:28:30 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:28:30 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
*important* and some 'cool' new features.
Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
work on this over the weekend.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From daniel at bovensiepen.net  Thu Apr 21 15:52:00 2005
From: daniel at bovensiepen.net (Daniel Bovensiepen)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:52:00 +0200
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE8DD100.3155%daniel@bovensiepen.net>

I'm not sure if this possible but it would be wonderfull if the og library
'ALTER' the given table structure. So I don't need to delete the tables if I
changed the property.

So far I can say: 'og is good enough'


mfg
daniel


Am 21.04.2005 9:28 Uhr schrieb "George Moschovitis" unter
<george.moschovitis at gmail.com>:

> Hello all,
> 
> I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
> will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
> *important* and some 'cool' new features.
> Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
> great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
> work on this over the weekend.
> 
> regards,
> George.




From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 21 16:09:03 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:09:03 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Javascript library
In-Reply-To: <afd80b540504210024761b5211@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b540504210024761b5211@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4268085F.4070403@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I am planning to integrate a javascript library in the next version of
> Nitro. The obvious candidate is Prototype but I was wondering if there
> is a better suggestion. Any ideas?

What do you mean by "integrate" ?

Can  it be done such that libraries are swappable?

James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 21 16:10:45 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:10:45 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <BE8DD100.3155%daniel@bovensiepen.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE8DD100.3155%daniel@bovensiepen.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042113104728f430@mail.gmail.com>

> So far I can say: 'og is good enough'

Wait 'till you see the new version :) :) :) :) You will be pleasantly surprised.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 21 16:13:03 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:13:03 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Javascript library
In-Reply-To: <4268085F.4070403@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b540504210024761b5211@mail.gmail.com>
	<4268085F.4070403@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042113133d474416@mail.gmail.com>

I mean provide the library by default. A javascript library should
allow for effects like div toggling, ajax, drag&drop and stuff like
that. Of course a developer could replace that library with another,
but I am planning to add some ruby helpers to better integrate this
with nitro.

-g.

On 4/21/05, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I am planning to integrate a javascript library in the next version of
> > Nitro. The obvious candidate is Prototype but I was wondering if there
> > is a better suggestion. Any ideas?
> 
> What do you mean by "integrate" ?
> 
> Can  it be done such that libraries are swappable?
> 
> James
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 21 16:58:06 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:58:06 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
> will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
> *important* and some 'cool' new features.
> Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
> great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
> work on this over the weekend.


I've not spent enough time with Og to say too much, but recent 
discussions on object persistence and revival had me wondering if the 
dominant model for the data was objects or relational database.

This question was particularly prominent when trying to use the file 
system adapter.  There didn't seem to be any support for raw SQL, and I 
wondered if that wasn't the wrong direction anyway.  Better perhaps if 
there was a Ruby-style API for finding, updating, etc. That a database 
was used as the back end would be hidden.

James


From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 21 22:07:36 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:07:36 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>

James Britt wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
> 
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
>> will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
>> *important* and some 'cool' new features.
>> Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
>> great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
>> work on this over the weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> I've not spent enough time with Og to say too much, but recent 
> discussions on object persistence and revival had me wondering if the 
> dominant model for the data was objects or relational database.
> 
> This question was particularly prominent when trying to use the file 
> system adapter.  There didn't seem to be any support for raw SQL, and I 
> wondered if that wasn't the wrong direction anyway.  Better perhaps if 
> there was a Ruby-style API for finding, updating, etc. That a database 
> was used as the back end would be hidden.

I've spent a fairly small amount of time so far trying to use ActiveRecord, and none 
at all yet with OG.  I decided that, conceptually, i preferred the AR approach of 
generating methods from an existing database schema.  After working with it a little, 
though, i have to say that i really don't like AR.  Creating various associations 
(has_one, belongs_to, etc) seems much more cumbersome to me than what i would hope to 
be able to do by simply writing a sql query wrapped inside a method where i can 
assign the values returned from the query to ruby variables.  This seems like it 
should be simpler to code, easier to work with, and more flexible.  There may 
actually be a way to do this with AR but questions to the mailing list haven't 
resulted in anything very helpful to me at the stage i'm at and the documentation is 
dreadful.  I wonder if OG could provide the kind of interface i'm alluding to?

craig



From paulha at aracnet.com  Thu Apr 21 22:35:49 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:35:49 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Inheritance with Og?
In-Reply-To: <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <42686305.1000505@aracnet.com>

If I derive a new class from an Og class, and I add a field to the 
derived class, how is this handled?  Is a new table created, or a field 
added to the old?

I suppose according to the rules of *relational* databases this 
shouldn't happen.  Does Og handle it?  (I'm not suggesting that it 
should...)

If I should be able to get this from the docs, just point me in the 
right direction!  ;-)

craig duncan wrote:

> James Britt wrote:
>
>> George Moschovitis wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
>>> will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
>>> *important* and some 'cool' new features.
>>> Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
>>> great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
>>> work on this over the weekend.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've not spent enough time with Og to say too much, but recent 
>> discussions on object persistence and revival had me wondering if the 
>> dominant model for the data was objects or relational database.
>>
>> This question was particularly prominent when trying to use the file 
>> system adapter.  There didn't seem to be any support for raw SQL, and 
>> I wondered if that wasn't the wrong direction anyway.  Better perhaps 
>> if there was a Ruby-style API for finding, updating, etc. That a 
>> database was used as the back end would be hidden.
>
>
> I've spent a fairly small amount of time so far trying to use 
> ActiveRecord, and none at all yet with OG.  I decided that, 
> conceptually, i preferred the AR approach of generating methods from 
> an existing database schema.  After working with it a little, though, 
> i have to say that i really don't like AR.  Creating various 
> associations (has_one, belongs_to, etc) seems much more cumbersome to 
> me than what i would hope to be able to do by simply writing a sql 
> query wrapped inside a method where i can assign the values returned 
> from the query to ruby variables.  This seems like it should be 
> simpler to code, easier to work with, and more flexible.  There may 
> actually be a way to do this with AR but questions to the mailing list 
> haven't resulted in anything very helpful to me at the stage i'm at 
> and the documentation is dreadful.  I wonder if OG could provide the 
> kind of interface i'm alluding to?
>
> craig
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 21 23:15:09 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:15:09 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com> <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <42686C3D.7080201@neurogami.com>

craig duncan wrote:
 >
 > I've spent a fairly small amount of time so far trying to use
 > ActiveRecord, and none at all yet with OG.  I decided that,
 > conceptually, i preferred the AR approach of generating methods from an
 > existing database schema.  After working with it a little, though, i
 > have to say that i really don't like AR.  Creating various associations
 > (has_one, belongs_to, etc) seems much more cumbersome to me than what i
 > would hope to be able to do by simply writing a sql query wrapped inside
 > a method where i can assign the values returned from the query to ruby
 > variables.  This seems like it should be simpler to code, easier to work
 > with, and more flexible.  There may actually be a way to do this with AR
 > but questions to the mailing list haven't resulted in anything very
 > helpful to me at the stage i'm at and the documentation is dreadful.  I
 > wonder if OG could provide the kind of interface i'm alluding to?

Ironic that you might get a better Rails answer on the Nitro list, but 
here goes:

Rails has find_by_sql:

     sql = "select t.* from tags t  where t.tag in ( #{tag_set_str} ) "
     tags = Tag.find_by_sql( sql )

# Now tags has a set of Tag objects.

I have a Rails app that is probably 90% SQL, as the API associations 
where simply too weak to get me what I wanted.  That may have changed in 
the current version, but given some of the quirky SQL I've had to write 
(due, in large part, to short comings with MySQL), I have a hard time 
believing that the dynamic SQL generation is anything near optimized.

This may be a good example a reason one might choose Rails over Nitro, 
or vice versa, or simply roll their own code.  One of my apps started 
using Rails, but I hacked around quite a bit; it is now mainly Catapult 
+  AR  + lots of SQL and object munging.  Ruby makes this easy, and in 
retrospect I don't see that using Rails gained me much (other than an 
education in Rails).  With about the same amount of effort I could have 
simply done the O/R mapping myself and just writing a fairly 
straightforward database-backed Web service.  And have fewer files 
laying around.

It's also the sort of thing where I don't think Nitro would be a good 
fit, because I already know and have the data, I need to hand code the 
SQL, and I'm just rendering result sets in assorted markup based on 
various queries.  There are very few objects, and there is very little 
business logic; it's mostly "Look this up and wrap RDF around the 
results."

For other applications, the objects are the main thing, with the data 
being something of residual artifacts.  In those cases, I don't really 
want to think in SQL, I want to think in object relationships.  I think 
Kirbybase is an example of this.

I can see, though, were one might need to go to the metal, as it were, 
and run specific SQL against the database to get the correct object set 
(and ensure it happens efficiently).  I think, though, that this makes 
it harder to write cross-Og adapter code, as  not all persistence layers 
use SQL (or use it the same way).

But, being coupled to a particular persistence layer is often a design 
choice one has to make as the requirements become clearer.  In my 
experience, database-hopping is rare, and trying to build this in is 
typically not worth the overhead.



James


From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 21 23:16:57 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:16:57 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Inheritance with Og?
In-Reply-To: <42686305.1000505@aracnet.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
	<42686305.1000505@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <42686CA9.7090903@neurogami.com>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>    If I derive a new class from an Og class, and I add a field to the 
> derived class, how is this handled?  Is a new table created, or a field 
> added to the old?
> 
> I suppose according to the rules of *relational* databases this 
> shouldn't happen.  Does Og handle it?  (I'm not suggesting that it 
> should...)

My sense of POLS is that there should be a new table created, one named 
after the new class, with fields mapped to the class properties.

James


From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 21 23:41:57 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:41:57 -0400
Subject: OT: AR difficulties (was Re: [Nitro] Og update)
In-Reply-To: <42686C3D.7080201@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net> <42686C3D.7080201@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <42687285.1000406@earthlink.net>

James Britt wrote:

> Ironic that you might get a better Rails answer on the Nitro list, but 
> here goes:
> 
> Rails has find_by_sql:
> 
>     sql = "select t.* from tags t  where t.tag in ( #{tag_set_str} ) "
>     tags = Tag.find_by_sql( sql )
> 
> # Now tags has a set of Tag objects.

I knew about find_by_sql.  I don't think that gives me what i'm looking for, though, 
as it returns (in this instance) Tag objects which map directly to the "tags" table. 
  My desire is not to have my objects limited to having to map directly to a db table 
because my sql query will do joins that pull values from multiple tables.  I just 
can't get my head around AR because there is zero documentation at the right level 
and because of all the magic (using const_missing and method_missing everywhere).  I 
think maybe i'll just learn PHP.  :-)  This is seriously off-topic, but i think ruby 
magic takes the difficulty of understanding how an application works (absent good 
documentation) to a significantly higher level than what i'm used to with C/C++.

> I have a Rails app that is probably 90% SQL, as the API associations were
 > simply too weak to get me what I wanted. ... and in retrospect I don't see
 > that using Rails gained me much (other than an education in Rails).
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...the *one* thing that keeps me going with this... even though what i'm
trying to do sounds very similar to what you described:

> With about the same amount of effort I could have 
> simply done the O/R mapping myself and just writing a fairly 
> straightforward database-backed Web service.  And have fewer files 
> laying around.
...
> because I already know and have the data, I need to hand code the 
> SQL, and I'm just rendering result sets in assorted markup based on 
> various queries.  There are very few objects, and there is very little 
> business logic; it's mostly "Look this up and wrap RDF around the results."

craig


From paulha at aracnet.com  Fri Apr 22 01:44:21 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:44:21 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Inheritance with Og?
In-Reply-To: <42686CA9.7090903@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<42686305.1000505@aracnet.com>
	<42686CA9.7090903@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <42688F35.9040205@aracnet.com>

Ah!  That would make sense.  :-)

James Britt wrote:

> PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>
>>    If I derive a new class from an Og class, and I add a field to the 
>> derived class, how is this handled?  Is a new table created, or a 
>> field added to the old?
>>
>> I suppose according to the rules of *relational* databases this 
>> shouldn't happen.  Does Og handle it?  (I'm not suggesting that it 
>> should...)
>
>
> My sense of POLS is that there should be a new table created, one 
> named after the new class, with fields mapped to the class properties.
>
> James
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>
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From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 02:45:23 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:45:23 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com> <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>

Can you explain more what you want? An advantage of Og over AR is that
it automatically creates the correct schema for the associations (or
Relations as they are called in Og). The same happens with Mixins. For
example, Og automatically creates the table columns to support the
nested_sets pattern, thus fully encapsulating the pattern.

-g.

On 4/22/05, craig duncan <craig-duncan at earthlink.net> wrote:
> James Britt wrote:
> > George Moschovitis wrote:
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
> >> will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
> >> *important* and some 'cool' new features.
> >> Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
> >> great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
> >> work on this over the weekend.
> >
> >
> >
> > I've not spent enough time with Og to say too much, but recent
> > discussions on object persistence and revival had me wondering if the
> > dominant model for the data was objects or relational database.
> >
> > This question was particularly prominent when trying to use the file
> > system adapter.  There didn't seem to be any support for raw SQL, and I
> > wondered if that wasn't the wrong direction anyway.  Better perhaps if
> > there was a Ruby-style API for finding, updating, etc. That a database
> > was used as the back end would be hidden.
> 
> I've spent a fairly small amount of time so far trying to use ActiveRecord, and none
> at all yet with OG.  I decided that, conceptually, i preferred the AR approach of
> generating methods from an existing database schema.  After working with it a little,
> though, i have to say that i really don't like AR.  Creating various associations
> (has_one, belongs_to, etc) seems much more cumbersome to me than what i would hope to
> be able to do by simply writing a sql query wrapped inside a method where i can
> assign the values returned from the query to ruby variables.  This seems like it
> should be simpler to code, easier to work with, and more flexible.  There may
> actually be a way to do this with AR but questions to the mailing list haven't
> resulted in anything very helpful to me at the stage i'm at and the documentation is
> dreadful.  I wonder if OG could provide the kind of interface i'm alluding to?
> 
> craig
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 05:45:25 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:45:25 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Inheritance with Og?
In-Reply-To: <42688F35.9040205@aracnet.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com> <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
	<42686305.1000505@aracnet.com> <42686CA9.7090903@neurogami.com>
	<42688F35.9040205@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050422024553047244@mail.gmail.com>

I have something regarding inheritance in my mind :)

-g.

On 4/22/05, PAUL HANCHETT <paulha at aracnet.com> wrote:
>  Ah!  That would make sense.  :-)
> 
>  
>  James Britt wrote: 
> PAUL HANCHETT wrote: 
>  
>    If I derive a new class from an Og class, and I add a field to the
> derived class, how is this handled?  Is a new table created, or a field
> added to the old? 
>  
>  I suppose according to the rules of *relational* databases this shouldn't
> happen.  Does Og handle it?  (I'm not suggesting that it should...) 
>  
>  My sense of POLS is that there should be a new table created, one named
> after the new class, with fields mapped to the class properties. 
>  
>  James 
>  _______________________________________________ 
>  Nitro-general mailing list 
>  Nitro-general at rubyforge.org 
>  http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general 
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 
> 
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 22 10:39:01 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:39:01 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Can you explain more what you want? An advantage of Og over AR is that
> it automatically creates the correct schema for the associations (or
> Relations as they are called in Og). The same happens with Mixins. For
> example, Og automatically creates the table columns to support the
> nested_sets pattern, thus fully encapsulating the pattern.
> 
> -g.

a) i want something that's documented (reasonably well) so that even if the way to 
use the feature is not entirely obvious or maybe even a little difficult, i can still 
manage it without tearing my hair out.  Also, the difficulty (over what i could 
accomplish more simply) should be worth the effort.

b) if i can't easily (enough) figure out how a certain (powerful) feature works and i 
know that what i want should be easily doable, then there should be some alternate, 
probably not as powerful, but easy to grasp, mechanism for accomplishing roughly the 
same thing.

So, with ActiveRecord, what i've wanted to do is select (via multiple joins) fields 
from a number of tables... not one by one but in a single query that hits the 
database just once and returns a single result (this is exactly what i would do if i 
were working directly in sql).  In principle this seems very simple to me, and i 
perfectly well understand how to write the sql.  My (fuzzier) notion of how this data 
will be returned to me (since it doesn't map to any individual db table) was some 
mechanism that would allow me to create a class with members giving me access to each 
field returned from the query.  Maybe i should use a view but i've been resisting 
that idea because i'm not clear how updates would work and AR, in this instance, 
would be providing me with nothing but the most limited capability and so... why bother?

Further, i have just run into the situation where one of my ancillary tables is 
selected from via *two* key fields in my main table.  So far, with AR, i know of no 
(non-kludgy) way of doing this, nor have i yet received any answer from the Rails 
mailing list.

Overall, what i want to do is really *quite* simple.  I have a very normalized set of 
tables.  And yet it is proving (to me) amazingly difficult to even understand the 
approach i'm supposed to take with AR regarding these various issues (which is, 
admittedly, pretty much a documentation problem).

As far as what you've said about automatically creating the Relations, i have no idea 
how this would work, so i can't say if it would provide the means to do what i'm 
trying to do.

craig

P.S.  After looking at such a lot of really poor documentation (not from the 
standpoint of what's expected from an IBM reference manual, but from virtually any 
other) i've had the thought of volunteering to write documentation... if someone 
would be willing to *explain* to me how the thing to be documented works 
(iteratively, of course).  It's a truism but anyone who knows how something works too 
well and/or learned it too long ago, is virtually incapable of doing good 
documentation, because they skip over too much that is so obvious to them that it 
exists beneath the level of conscious awareness.


From james_b at neurogami.com  Fri Apr 22 11:00:01 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:00:01 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <42691171.7010802@neurogami.com>

craig duncan wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
> 
>> Can you explain more what you want? An advantage of Og over AR is that
>> it automatically creates the correct schema for the associations (or
>> Relations as they are called in Og). The same happens with Mixins. For
>> example, Og automatically creates the table columns to support the
>> nested_sets pattern, thus fully encapsulating the pattern.
>>
>> -g.
> 
> 
> a) i want something that's documented (reasonably well) so that even if 
> the way to use the feature is not entirely obvious or maybe even a 
> little difficult, i can still manage it without tearing my hair out.  
> Also, the difficulty (over what i could accomplish more simply) should 
> be worth the effort.
> 
> b) if i can't easily (enough) figure out how a certain (powerful) 
> feature works and i know that what i want should be easily doable, then 
> there should be some alternate, probably not as powerful, but easy to 
> grasp, mechanism for accomplishing roughly the same thing.
> 
> So, with ActiveRecord, what i've wanted to do is select (via multiple 
> joins) fields from a number of tables... not one by one but in a single 
> query that hits the database just once and returns a single result (this 
> is exactly what i would do if i were working directly in sql).  In 
> principle this seems very simple to me, and i perfectly well understand 
> how to write the sql.  My (fuzzier) notion of how this data will be 
> returned to me (since it doesn't map to any individual db table) was 
> some mechanism that would allow me to create a class with members giving 
> me access to each field returned from the query.  Maybe i should use a 
> view but i've been resisting that idea because i'm not clear how updates 
> would work and AR, in this instance, would be providing me with nothing 
> but the most limited capability and so... why bother?


Craig, I tried to reply privately to an earlier message, but it bounced. 
  I didn't want to turn this into Yet Another Rails List, but this may 
be of interest to George as a way of perhaps explaining some behavior.

I haven't checked this lately, but I recall that when I used custom SQL 
to fetch an object set in Rails, the properties of each object were 
determined by the fields requested, not the class making the request.

So,

   sql = "select t.id as tag_id from tags t  "
   tag_ids = Tag.find_by_sql( sql )

would give a set of objects of class Tag, but each object would only 
have a single property, 'tag_id'  (though I generally use it to add new 
properties to objects when the extra info is useful in the view).

I believe that you can create arbitrary objects like this, though I'm 
unsure if there are restrictions or consequences based on what main 
class is used to run the query.

But I also suspect that writing something that just returned smart 
Structs or something, based on the result set, would be simple.

Given a result set, one would just need to loop over each row and 
dynamically create a new object with properties mapped to field names.

e.g:

obj_set = ObjectSet.get( "select t.name as name from tags t,
                p.url as url from posts p
                where p.id = t.post_id" )

# obj_set  should now have objects with properties 'name' and 'url'

There have been some recent threads on ruby-talk about dynamically 
adding attributes, or one could first dynamically construct a class def 
based on the field names in the result set, then create an instance of 
this for each row.


> 
> Further, i have just run into the situation where one of my ancillary 
> tables is selected from via *two* key fields in my main table.  So far, 
> with AR, i know of no (non-kludgy) way of doing this, nor have i yet 
> received any answer from the Rails mailing list.
> 
> Overall, what i want to do is really *quite* simple.  I have a very 
> normalized set of tables.  And yet it is proving (to me) amazingly 
> difficult to even understand the approach i'm supposed to take with AR 
> regarding these various issues (which is, admittedly, pretty much a 
> documentation problem).

Rails can be overkill.  AR may be overkill.  Creating objects from a 
result set is trivial.
> 
> As far as what you've said about automatically creating the Relations, i 
> have no idea how this would work, so i can't say if it would provide the 
> means to do what i'm trying to do.
> 
> craig
> 
> P.S.  After looking at such a lot of really poor documentation (not from 
> the standpoint of what's expected from an IBM reference manual, but from 
> virtually any other) i've had the thought of volunteering to write 
> documentation... if someone would be willing to *explain* to me how the 
> thing to be documented works (iteratively, of course).  It's a truism 
> but anyone who knows how something works too well and/or learned it too 
> long ago, is virtually incapable of doing good documentation, because 
> they skip over too much that is so obvious to them that it exists 
> beneath the level of conscious awareness.


I started writing my Nitro tutorial as a way to help me learn how to use 
it.  I basically tried to start off with the simplest case, see how to 
do something, then gradually add features based on likely use cases.

I know from experience that documenting one's own work can be hard 
precisely because you lose track of what is intuitive and what isn't, 
which I think may be an argument for using obvious method names, and 
maybe following comment-driven development


James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Fri Apr 22 11:20:57 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:20:57 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <d4b3lq$8dl$1@sea.gmane.org>

craig duncan wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
> 
>> Can you explain more what you want? An advantage of Og over AR is that
>> it automatically creates the correct schema for the associations (or
>> Relations as they are called in Og). The same happens with Mixins. For
>> example, Og automatically creates the table columns to support the
>> nested_sets pattern, thus fully encapsulating the pattern.
>>
>> -g.
> 
> 
> a) i want something that's documented (reasonably well) so that even if 
[...]

> It's a truism 
> but anyone who knows how something works too well and/or learned it too 
> long ago, is virtually incapable of doing good documentation, because 
> they skip over too much that is so obvious to them that it exists 
> beneath the level of conscious awareness.

I like to remember Mr. Moschovitis what I've told him a few weeks before 
subjecting documentation.

"your documentation cannot be good. Please assist me to make the 
jamPersist evaluation, which can serve as an intro tutorial.".

-

I will make a document similar to this:

http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/schevo.html

when the "auto-restructure" option is available within OG.

The evaluation will work with a hassle-free bundled SQLite3 database - 
download and run.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 22 16:42:39 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:42:39 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <42691171.7010802@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net> <42691171.7010802@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <426961BF.8030609@earthlink.net>

James Britt wrote:

> I didn't want to turn this into Yet Another Rails List, but this may be 
> of interest to George as a way of perhaps explaining some behavior.

<snip>

> obj_set = ObjectSet.get( "select t.name as name from tags t,
>                p.url as url from posts p
>                where p.id = t.post_id" )
> 
> # obj_set  should now have objects with properties 'name' and 'url'

Very cool!  How can so many people be working on Rails and have been able to live 
without having (more or less) worked out this problem?  Oh... i forget... Rails 
hasn't hit 1.0 yet.  :-)

Anyways, thanks James, you have given me my direction for how to (try to) make this
work without having to change my db schema or resort to other kludginess.

> There have been some recent threads on ruby-talk about dynamically 
> adding attributes, or one could first dynamically construct a class def 
> based on the field names in the result set, then create an instance of 
> this for each row.

I haven't been keeping up on ruby-talk.  But i thought this was already "easy" to do. 
  ?  i.e. no real innovation required (just exercising Ruby's existing 
metaprogramming abilities).

> Rails can be overkill.  AR may be overkill.

Something to ponder and, although i don't yet know enough, those conclusions have 
certainly crossed my mind.  Or both overkill and underkill at the same time.  :-)

> I started writing my Nitro tutorial as a way to help me learn how to use 
> it.  I basically tried to start off with the simplest case, see how to 
> do something, then gradually add features based on likely use cases.

Well, in all seriousness, i started with Rails and haven't really touched Nitro yet. 
  But if you want some eyes on what you've produced so far, i'd love to take a look. 
  I could probably give you some good feedback.

craig


From james_b at neurogami.com  Fri Apr 22 18:15:27 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:15:27 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <426961BF.8030609@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
	<42691171.7010802@neurogami.com> <426961BF.8030609@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4269777F.9010600@neurogami.com>

craig duncan wrote:
> James Britt wrote:
> 
>> I didn't want to turn this into Yet Another Rails List, but this may 
>> be of interest to George as a way of perhaps explaining some behavior.
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> obj_set = ObjectSet.get( "select t.name as name from tags t,
>>                p.url as url from posts p
>>                where p.id = t.post_id" )
>>
>> # obj_set  should now have objects with properties 'name' and 'url'
> 
> 
> Very cool!  How can so many people be working on Rails and have been 
> able to live without having (more or less) worked out this problem?  
> Oh... i forget... Rails hasn't hit 1.0 yet.  :-)

Well, I believe this sort of thing *can* be done inside Rails (though 
not quite the way I would prefer); my experience with the Rails mailing 
list is that most people there know very little Ruby, and build apps 
only by following Rails tutorials or examples.  I don't think many 
people actually look at the source code.

> 
> Anyways, thanks James, you have given me my direction for how to (try 
> to) make this
> work without having to change my db schema or resort to other kludginess.


> 
>> There have been some recent threads on ruby-talk about dynamically 
>> adding attributes, or one could first dynamically construct a class 
>> def based on the field names in the result set, then create an 
>> instance of this for each row.
> 
> 
> I haven't been keeping up on ruby-talk.  But i thought this was already 
> "easy" to do.  ?  i.e. no real innovation required (just exercising 
> Ruby's existing metaprogramming abilities).

It is easy to do.  But maybe not obvious.  (I keep toying with the idea 
of writing a Ruby tutorial, one that would focus on the Lispy 
metaprgramming aspects that are either ignored or buried in other Ruby 
books and how-tos.)


> 
>> Rails can be overkill.  AR may be overkill.
> 
> 
> Something to ponder and, although i don't yet know enough, those 
> conclusions have certainly crossed my mind.  Or both overkill and 
> underkill at the same time.  :-)

Well, I like Rails for certain types of applications, but the Nitro 
approach seems a better fit for much of what I do.

Rails, though, seems to be approaching a shotgun/kitchen-sink framework, 
what with  the increasing number of built-in libraries and code 
generators.    One is strongly encouraged to do things the Rails way, 
not the Ruby way, which may lead to brittle or highly-coupled code.

Doing the simple thing can get hard, then, unless you know the specific 
Rails API call.


> 
>> I started writing my Nitro tutorial as a way to help me learn how to 
>> use it.  I basically tried to start off with the simplest case, see 
>> how to do something, then gradually add features based on likely use 
>> cases.
> 
> 
> Well, in all seriousness, i started with Rails and haven't really 
> touched Nitro yet.  But if you want some eyes on what you've produced so 
> far, i'd love to take a look.  I could probably give you some good 
> feedback.

Thanks.  I have to review and revise what I have already written, seeing 
how Nitro keeps changing (Damn you, George!).  I'll send you a copy when 
the revisions are done.


James


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 00:57:50 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:57:50 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com> <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>

> P.S.  After looking at such a lot of really poor documentation (not from the
> standpoint of what's expected from an IBM reference manual, but from virtually any
> other) i've had the thought of volunteering to write documentation... if someone
> would be willing to *explain* to me how the thing to be documented works
> (iteratively, of course).  It's a truism but anyone who knows how something works too
> well and/or learned it too long ago, is virtually incapable of doing good
> documentation, because they skip over too much that is so obvious to them that it
> exists beneath the level of conscious awareness.

Should I consider this as an offer to write some documentation? :-) In
any case I will help you with any questions you have.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 01:00:15 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:00:15 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <4269777F.9010600@neurogami.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com> <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net> <42691171.7010802@neurogami.com>
	<426961BF.8030609@earthlink.net> <4269777F.9010600@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050422220027ea5d17@mail.gmail.com>

> Thanks.  I have to review and revise what I have already written, seeing
> how Nitro keeps changing (Damn you, George!).  I'll send you a copy when
> the revisions are done.

Sorry for that James ;-) But at least Og will be pretty stabilized
from the next version on.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From james_b at neurogami.com  Sat Apr 23 01:17:38 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:17:38 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050422220027ea5d17@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
	<42691171.7010802@neurogami.com>	<426961BF.8030609@earthlink.net>
	<4269777F.9010600@neurogami.com>
	<afd80b54050422220027ea5d17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4269DA72.8020301@neurogami.com>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>Thanks.  I have to review and revise what I have already written, seeing
>>how Nitro keeps changing (Damn you, George!).  I'll send you a copy when
>>the revisions are done.
> 
> 
> Sorry for that James ;-) But at least Og will be pretty stabilized
> from the next version on.

Oh, quite alright.  Better to get it right than fast.

James


From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 23 06:01:15 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:01:15 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4d5a5$ous$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>P.S.  After looking at such a lot of really poor documentation (not from the
>>standpoint of what's expected from an IBM reference manual, but from virtually any
>>other) i've had the thought of volunteering to write documentation... if someone
>>would be willing to *explain* to me how the thing to be documented works
>>(iteratively, of course).  It's a truism but anyone who knows how something works too
>>well and/or learned it too long ago, is virtually incapable of doing good
>>documentation, because they skip over too much that is so obvious to them that it
>>exists beneath the level of conscious awareness.
> 
> Should I consider this as an offer to write some documentation? :-) In
> any case I will help you with any questions you have.

Is there any reason for this discrimination?

> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 23 19:58:30 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:58:30 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <426AE126.7050807@earthlink.net>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>P.S.  After looking at such a lot of really poor documentation (not from the
>>standpoint of what's expected from an IBM reference manual, but from virtually any
>>other) i've had the thought of volunteering to write documentation... if someone
>>would be willing to *explain* to me how the thing to be documented works
>>(iteratively, of course).  It's a truism but anyone who knows how something works too
>>well and/or learned it too long ago, is virtually incapable of doing good
>>documentation, because they skip over too much that is so obvious to them that it
>>exists beneath the level of conscious awareness.
> 
> 
> Should I consider this as an offer to write some documentation? :-) In
> any case I will help you with any questions you have.
> 
> regards,
> George.

Absolutely.  Unfortunately, it doesn't seem likely i'm going to do like James and 
puzzle it out all on my lonesome.  He has that ability more than i.  I *do* have the 
ability to write very good documentation once i understand something.  And i *can* 
figure things out.  But figuring out ruby meta-programming is hard.  And lots of 
people are content to just _sort of_ understand... enough for them to get something 
working given trying some number of random variations.   Not me.  When i understand 
something i *really* understand it.  But it takes me longer.

How can i get started with Nitro?  I've read the Og stuff.  And i haven't seen 
*anything* else.  Nothing at all to get started with.  I'd really like to see James 
intro and build on that.  I'm thinking that DHH is really not doing the documentation 
thing right.  The thing about that, though, is i don't think that he really cares. 
His ambitions (unfortunately, in my view) lie elsewhere and he's perfectly happy to 
let someone write some good documentation some months down the road as it means that 
*he* won't have to bother.  That's fine if he were actually concerned about the 
current state of the documentation.  But i don't see any indication that he is.  In 
going through the mailing list, i've found questions that i thought were very useful 
in trying to draw him out into explaining some things on a more general, conceptual 
level, and after answering a very specific, detailed part of the question, he never 
even responded to the followup asking for further clarification.

Anyway, the answer is yes.

craig


From craig-duncan at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 23 20:03:58 2005
From: craig-duncan at earthlink.net (craig duncan)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:03:58 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <d4d5a5$ous$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4d5a5$ous$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <426AE26E.40000@earthlink.net>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> George Moschovitis wrote:
>>
>> Should I consider this as an offer to write some documentation? :-) In
>> any case I will help you with any questions you have.
> 
> 
> Is there any reason for this discrimination?

I seem like i'm willing to actually write some documentation?

craig

P.S.  Have to be more careful with what the reply-to headers are set to (re my last 
message).


From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 05:34:05 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 12:34:05 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <426AE26E.40000@earthlink.net>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com> <42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>
	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4d5a5$ous$1@sea.gmane.org> <426AE26E.40000@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042402343162dfb4@mail.gmail.com>

there is no discrimination, i said in ANY case...
I try to answer all the questions I get.

At the moment I am really hard to finish a preview of the Og update. I
plan to post a preview  so that everyone on this list has a chance to
comment on the new features and implementation.

-g.

On 4/24/05, craig duncan <craig-duncan at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> > George Moschovitis wrote:
> >>
> >> Should I consider this as an offer to write some documentation? :-) In
> >> any case I will help you with any questions you have.
> >
> >
> > Is there any reason for this discrimination?
> 
> I seem like i'm willing to actually write some documentation?
> 
> craig
> 
> P.S.  Have to be more careful with what the reply-to headers are set to (re my last
> message).
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sun Apr 24 10:14:53 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:14:53 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042402343162dfb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<426813DE.90907@neurogami.com>
	<42685C68.6010003@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042123456a288ed7@mail.gmail.com>	<42690C85.1090208@earthlink.net>	<afd80b5405042221573d608520@mail.gmail.com>	<d4d5a5$ous$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<426AE26E.40000@earthlink.net>
	<afd80b5405042402343162dfb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4g8h8$a2i$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
[...]
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>> George Moschovitis wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Should I consider this as an offer to write some documentation?
>>>> :-) In any case I will help you with any questions you have.
>>> 
>>> Is there any reason for this discrimination?

> there is no discrimination, i said in ANY case... I try to answer all
> the questions I get.

I meant discrimitation of persons (me).

I have made the same proposal, just one message above (and one month
before) without such a positive reply from you.

> At the moment I am really hard to finish a preview of the Og update.
> I plan to post a preview  so that everyone on this list has a chance
> to comment on the new features and implementation.

ok.

It is possibly time to open an .devel group, where you can ask for
assistance during your coding sessions.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 25 03:31:07 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:31:07 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Misc,
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042500316ee5a612@mail.gmail.com>

Paul, Craig,

thanks for your remarks. IMHO, we should focus on development problems
instead. For example your post exchange with James were very helpful
for me while designing the new version of Og. I would like to hear
more suggestions and even better problems with the  current
implementation of Nitro.

For example Michael Neumann has been VERY helpful by pointing out
several shortcomings of Og, more or less forcing me to take a step
back, rethink on the implementation and try to offer  solutions.

I Hope to see more coding related posts in this list. I fully
understand the problem with documentation, and realize that I promised
proper documentation for a long time, but in about 2 weeks I 'll be
pretty happy with the Nitro/Og API and I will really focus on the
important documentation issue. I hope we will see some tutorial first
(James? :)) but in any case be assured, I 'll do whats needed to make
Nitro/Og more accessible to newcomers.

regards,
George.


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Mon Apr 25 04:25:53 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:25:53 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Misc,
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042500316ee5a612@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042500316ee5a612@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4i8ej$vna$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Paul, Craig,
> 
> thanks for your remarks. IMHO, we should focus on development problems
> instead. For example your post exchange with James were very helpful
> for me while designing the new version of Og. 
[...]
 > For example Michael Neumann has been VERY helpful by pointing out
 > several shortcomings of Og, more or less forcing me to take a step
 > back, rethink on the implementation and try to offer  solutions.

I hope this will not delay things further.

once more: please freeze and create a product (it can be changed 
afterwards, it's anyway alpha software).


> I Hope to see more coding related posts in this list. I fully
[...]

this is a deadlock.

provide an initial product, an auto-restructuring persistency library 
"OG", thus people can start working efficiently with persistent ruby 
objects.

> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Apr 27 03:17:25 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:17:25 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4ne01$lfv$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I am planning an extensive update of the Og library. The api changes
> will be minimal, but the new implementation will allow for some
> *important* and some 'cool' new features.

can you please post a status report?

> Now is the time to send me your suggestions about things that are not
> great in the current version, or ideas for new features. I plan to
> work on this over the weekend.
> 
> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Apr 27 04:16:47 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:16:47 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an
> sqlite3.
> 
> I retrieve this object.
> 
> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
> 
> 
> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
> 
> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
> 
> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
> 
> [the new property i've added]
> 
> -
> 
> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>  class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).

Implementation Suggestion:

in pseudo-code:

#-------------------------------------

if store.freezed?
   return appStoreFreezedError

for each store.classes (aClass)

   if not aClass.store.freezed?
     if not aClass.store.actual?
       aClass.store.restructure()

next

#-------------------------------------

aClass::store::restructure()

for each class.field (aField)

   action = aField.detectActionToPerform()
   if action
     # call action
   else
     # doNothing

next

   # actions prioritized:
   # add fields to table
   # removde field (optionally keep removed fields)
   # change field type
   # execute "SQL restructure"

#-------------------------------------

store.addField(newField)
   # SQL TABLE ALTER - ADD COLUMN
   # http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html

#-------------------------------------

-

please let me know if I should refine this further.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From paulha at aracnet.com  Wed Apr 27 11:47:58 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:47:58 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org> <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>

Ilias--

You might try searching this list for the problem you describe-- I've 
seen it mentioned here and George responded that there was a feature to 
automatically update the structure.  He said it was presently turned off 
because he worried that it was a bit dangerous (and it is).

The problem is that there are a variety of things that can happen that 
will change the structure of the table, and the meta information to know 
how to handle each case is not there.  Adding a new field is relatively 
clean, so it dropping one.  But renaming a field looks like a drop /and/ 
an add, and a naieve implementation will loose data rather than rename 
the field as desired.

For now, I believe that you have to manually update changes to the table 
structure once Og has created it.

Paul


Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an
>> sqlite3.
>>
>> I retrieve this object.
>>
>> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
>>
>>
>> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
>>
>> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
>>
>> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
>>
>> [the new property i've added]
>>
>> -
>>
>> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>>  class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).
>
>
> Implementation Suggestion:
>
> in pseudo-code:
>
> #-------------------------------------
>
> if store.freezed?
>   return appStoreFreezedError
>
> for each store.classes (aClass)
>
>   if not aClass.store.freezed?
>     if not aClass.store.actual?
>       aClass.store.restructure()
>
> next
>
> #-------------------------------------
>
> aClass::store::restructure()
>
> for each class.field (aField)
>
>   action = aField.detectActionToPerform()
>   if action
>     # call action
>   else
>     # doNothing
>
> next
>
>   # actions prioritized:
>   # add fields to table
>   # removde field (optionally keep removed fields)
>   # change field type
>   # execute "SQL restructure"
>
> #-------------------------------------
>
> store.addField(newField)
>   # SQL TABLE ALTER - ADD COLUMN
>   # http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html
>
> #-------------------------------------
>
> -
>
> please let me know if I should refine this further.
>
> .
>
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From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Apr 27 11:58:28 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:58:28 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org> <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <d4ocgt$vr3$1@sea.gmane.org>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
> Ilias--
> 
> You might try searching this list for the problem you describe-- 

I don't have to.

I've raised this issue.

> I've 
> seen it mentioned here and George responded that there was a feature to 
> automatically update the structure.  He said it was presently turned off 
> because he worried that it was a bit dangerous (and it is).

you are not up-to-date.

please review the latest threads.

> The problem is that there are a variety of things that can happen that 
[...] - (obvious/irrelevant stuff)

I've suggested what is trivial:

implementing initially "add field" and "remove field".

> For now, I believe that you have to manually update changes to the table 
> structure once Og has created it.

what you believe is irrelevant.

I'm awaiting the reply of an developer.

[posted it here as no developer-list available].

> Paul
> 
> 
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an
>>> sqlite3.
>>>
>>> I retrieve this object.
>>>
>>> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
>>>
>>>
>>> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
>>>
>>> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
>>>
>>> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
>>>
>>> [the new property i've added]
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>>>  class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).
>>
>>
>>
>> Implementation Suggestion:
>>
>> in pseudo-code:
>>
>> #-------------------------------------
>>
>> if store.freezed?
>>   return appStoreFreezedError
>>
>> for each store.classes (aClass)
>>
>>   if not aClass.store.freezed?
>>     if not aClass.store.actual?
>>       aClass.store.restructure()
>>
>> next
>>
>> #-------------------------------------
>>
>> aClass::store::restructure()
>>
>> for each class.field (aField)
>>
>>   action = aField.detectActionToPerform()
>>   if action
>>     # call action
>>   else
>>     # doNothing
>>
>> next
>>
>>   # actions prioritized:
>>   # add fields to table
>>   # removde field (optionally keep removed fields)
>>   # change field type
>>   # execute "SQL restructure"
>>
>> #-------------------------------------
>>
>> store.addField(newField)
>>   # SQL TABLE ALTER - ADD COLUMN
>>   # http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html
>>
>> #-------------------------------------
>>
>> -
>>
>> please let me know if I should refine this further.
>>
>> .
>>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general


-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From paulha at aracnet.com  Wed Apr 27 12:11:21 2005
From: paulha at aracnet.com (PAUL HANCHETT)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:11:21 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d4ocgt$vr3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>	<426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>
	<d4ocgt$vr3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <426FB9A9.9060504@aracnet.com>

Sorry Ilias, you're going onto my Spam list.  Bye.

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
>
>> Ilias--
>>
>> You might try searching this list for the problem you describe-- 
>
>
> I don't have to.
>
> I've raised this issue.
>
>> I've seen it mentioned here and George responded that there was a 
>> feature to automatically update the structure.  He said it was 
>> presently turned off because he worried that it was a bit dangerous 
>> (and it is).
>
>
> you are not up-to-date.
>
> please review the latest threads.
>
>> The problem is that there are a variety of things that can happen that 
>
> [...] - (obvious/irrelevant stuff)
>
> I've suggested what is trivial:
>
> implementing initially "add field" and "remove field".
>
>> For now, I believe that you have to manually update changes to the 
>> table structure once Og has created it.
>
>
> what you believe is irrelevant.
>
> I'm awaiting the reply of an developer.
>
> [posted it here as no developer-list available].
>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>>
>>>> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an
>>>> sqlite3.
>>>>
>>>> I retrieve this object.
>>>>
>>>> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
>>>>
>>>> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
>>>>
>>>> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
>>>>
>>>> [the new property i've added]
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>>>>  class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Implementation Suggestion:
>>>
>>> in pseudo-code:
>>>
>>> #-------------------------------------
>>>
>>> if store.freezed?
>>>   return appStoreFreezedError
>>>
>>> for each store.classes (aClass)
>>>
>>>   if not aClass.store.freezed?
>>>     if not aClass.store.actual?
>>>       aClass.store.restructure()
>>>
>>> next
>>>
>>> #-------------------------------------
>>>
>>> aClass::store::restructure()
>>>
>>> for each class.field (aField)
>>>
>>>   action = aField.detectActionToPerform()
>>>   if action
>>>     # call action
>>>   else
>>>     # doNothing
>>>
>>> next
>>>
>>>   # actions prioritized:
>>>   # add fields to table
>>>   # removde field (optionally keep removed fields)
>>>   # change field type
>>>   # execute "SQL restructure"
>>>
>>> #-------------------------------------
>>>
>>> store.addField(newField)
>>>   # SQL TABLE ALTER - ADD COLUMN
>>>   # http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html
>>>
>>> #-------------------------------------
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> please let me know if I should refine this further.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nitro-general mailing list
>> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
>
>
>
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From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Apr 27 12:20:48 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:20:48 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <426FB9A9.9060504@aracnet.com>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>	<d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>	<426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>	<d4ocgt$vr3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<426FB9A9.9060504@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <d4odqo$729$1@sea.gmane.org>

PAUL HANCHETT wrote:
> Sorry Ilias, you're going onto my Spam list.  Bye.

???

ok, bye.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 27 14:01:51 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:01:51 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org> <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<426FB42E.30301@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b540504271101228adc98@mail.gmail.com>

> Adding a new field is relatively clean, so
> it dropping one.  But renaming a field looks like a drop and an add, and a
> naieve implementation will loose data rather than rename the field as
> desired.

As I said, I had a version that handled some trivial and some not so
trivial cases. I haven thought a lot about this lately. I 'll review
Ilias suggestion though.

> For now, I believe that you have to manually update changes to the table
> structure once Og has created it.

Yeap, for the moment you have to manually update the field(s). But
this is typicaly relatively easy to do.

-g.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Wed Apr 27 14:04:32 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:04:32 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <d4ne01$lfv$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<d4ne01$lfv$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042711041d71fdd@mail.gmail.com>

> can you please post a status report?

The new Og is advancing quite nicely. I 'll release more details on
the coming Monday. I plan for a release some time in next week.

regards,
George.

-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Wed Apr 27 14:35:45 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:35:45 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] Og update
In-Reply-To: <afd80b5405042711041d71fdd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <afd80b5405042100283eb48bb2@mail.gmail.com>	<d4ne01$lfv$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b5405042711041d71fdd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4olno$35c$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
>>can you please post a status report?
> 
> The new Og is advancing quite nicely. I 'll release more details on
> the coming Monday. I plan for a release some time in next week.

you will run again and again into problems, if you do not increase your 
ability to decouple/isolate tasks.

the "add/remove-field" issue was a non-critical issue, which could be 
added seperately from other redesign issues.

you have lost at least one potential user (me) due to this delay.

> regards,
> George.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ak at navel.gr  Wed Apr 27 21:17:00 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:17:00 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] BUG: incorrect syntax can break 
Message-ID: <4270398C.9000607@navel.gr>

arghh.... if you're working late and write <? some_ruby_code ?> instead 
of <?r some_ruby_code ?> in one of your templates, be warned: the nitro 
engine falls into an infinite loop which would be very difficult to 
trace down.

pls fix this!

Tasos Koutoumanos




From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 03:17:51 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:17:51 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] BUG: incorrect syntax can break
In-Reply-To: <4270398C.9000607@navel.gr>
References: <4270398C.9000607@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042800171aa9a52b@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm... sorry for this, I 'll fix it ASAP!

thanks for the report.
-g.

On 4/28/05, Anastasios Koutoumanos <ak at navel.gr> wrote:
> arghh.... if you're working late and write <? some_ruby_code ?> instead
> of <?r some_ruby_code ?> in one of your templates, be warned: the nitro
> engine falls into an infinite loop which would be very difficult to
> trace down.
> 
> pls fix this!
> 
> Tasos Koutoumanos
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Thu Apr 28 04:20:15 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:20:15 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] [JAMPERSIST] - Enabling Quick Evaluation
Message-ID: <d4q61g$gfk$1@sea.gmane.org>

Without the schema-auto-update, I cannot complete the template, as 
instructions like "delete table manually" etc. render Og useless.

Think about the impression an evaluator get's.

I mean an evaluator, who is the CTO of a company, and which a employee 
tries to convice about using ruby & og & ...

-

http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/og.html

-

I would like to add this functionality myself to the codebas (og 0.16).

Can I rely on the assistance of the developers (just if I have questions 
about the code / structure etc.)?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ak at navel.gr  Thu Apr 28 04:34:50 2005
From: ak at navel.gr (Anastasios Koutoumanos)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:34:50 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] [JAMPERSIST] - Enabling Quick Evaluation
In-Reply-To: <d4q61g$gfk$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d4q61g$gfk$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <4270A02A.6080509@navel.gr>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> Without the schema-auto-update, I cannot complete the template, as 
> instructions like "delete table manually" etc. render Og useless.
>
> Think about the impression an evaluator get's.
>
> I mean an evaluator, who is the CTO of a company, and which a employee 
> tries to convice about using ruby & og & ...
>
> -
>
> http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/og.html
>
> -
>
> I would like to add this functionality myself to the codebas (og 0.16).

i believe you've noticed the posts mentioning that G. is currently works 
on og. therefore i suggest you restrain from diggind into the code until 
the new version is released.

tasos koutoumanos

>
> Can I rely on the assistance of the developers (just if I have 
> questions about the code / structure etc.)?
>
> .
>



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Thu Apr 28 04:54:56 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:54:56 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] [JAMPERSIST] - Enabling Quick Evaluation
In-Reply-To: <4270A02A.6080509@navel.gr>
References: <d4q61g$gfk$1@sea.gmane.org> <4270A02A.6080509@navel.gr>
Message-ID: <d4q82g$mr2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> Without the schema-auto-update, I cannot complete the template, as 
>> instructions like "delete table manually" etc. render Og useless.
>>
>> Think about the impression an evaluator get's.
>>
>> I mean an evaluator, who is the CTO of a company, and which a employee 
>> tries to convice about using ruby & og & ...
>>
>> -
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/og.html
>>
>> -
>>
>> I would like to add this functionality myself to the codebas (og 0.16).
> 
> i believe you've noticed the posts mentioning that G. is currently works 
> on og. therefore i suggest you restrain from diggind into the code until 
> the new version is released.

I believe you've noticed the posts mentioning my doubts about your 
processing model and my time-limits (I've initialized this evaluation on 
2005-02-17).

I can make the "add field" automatism within estimated 2 to 4 hours, if 
I have some answers of the the developers.

So, my question remains:

>> Can I rely on the assistance of the developers (just if I have 
>> questions about the code / structure etc.)?

?

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Thu Apr 28 15:06:50 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:06:50 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org> <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d4rbto$oq9$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> 
>> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an
>> sqlite3.
>>
>> I retrieve this object.
>>
>> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
>>
>>
>> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
>>
>> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
>>
>> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
>>
>> [the new property i've added]
>>
>> -
>>
>> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>>  class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).

[I'm not familar with SQL and the sqlite-ruby. I would need assistance 
in executing the SQL and getting standard ruby objects]

within sqlite.rb

# -------------------------------------------------
# Helper Methods
# -------------------------------------------------

def table_exists?(tablename)
   # implementation based on:
   # http://www.sqlite.org/pragma.html#schema
end

# -------------------------------------------------

def table_fields(tablename)
   # implementation based on:
   # http://www.sqlite.org/pragma.html#schema
end

# -------------------------------------------------

def column_add(column_definition)
   #implementation based on:
   #http://www.sqlite.org/lang_altertable.html
end

# -------------------------------------------------

def column_delete(column_definition)
   # currently not directly implementable
   # column can remain within table
   # http://www.sqlite.org/lang_altertable.html
end

# -------------------------------------------------
# New Core Method
# -------------------------------------------------

def update_table(kalss,db)

   conn = db.get_connection

   fields = create_fields(klass)	

   fields = create_fields(klass)	

   table_fields = table_fields_get(klass::DTABLE)

   # loop to compare fields/table_fields
     # call to column_add / column_delete

   # execute sql

   # cleanup

end

# -------------------------------------------------
# Existend Core Method
# -------------------------------------------------

def create_table(klass,db)

   conn = db.get_connection

   fields = create_fields(klass)	

   if table_exists?(klass::DBTABLE)
     # cleanup
     update_table()
   end
		
# -------------------------------------------------

Additionally, the the answer to the question in code:

"# gmosx: any idea how to better test this?"

should be this:

http://www.sqlite.org/pragma.html#schema

> Implementation Suggestion:
> 
> in pseudo-code:
> 
> #-------------------------------------
> 
> if store.freezed?
>   return appStoreFreezedError
> 
> for each store.classes (aClass)
> 
>   if not aClass.store.freezed?
>     if not aClass.store.actual?
>       aClass.store.restructure()
> 
> next
> 
> #-------------------------------------
> 
> aClass::store::restructure()
> 
> for each class.field (aField)
> 
>   action = aField.detectActionToPerform()
>   if action
>     # call action
>   else
>     # doNothing
> 
> next
> 
>   # actions prioritized:
>   # add fields to table
>   # removde field (optionally keep removed fields)
>   # change field type
>   # execute "SQL restructure"
> 
> #-------------------------------------
> 
> store.addField(newField)
>   # SQL TABLE ALTER - ADD COLUMN
>   # http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html
> 
> #-------------------------------------
> 
> -
> 
> please let me know if I should refine this further.
> 
> .
> 


-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From james_b at neurogami.com  Thu Apr 28 17:39:39 2005
From: james_b at neurogami.com (James Britt)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:39:39 -0700
Subject: [Nitro] [OT] AOP blog
Message-ID: <4271581B.6020201@neurogami.com>

Given the use of AOP in Nitro/Og, I thought this might be of interest.

http://www.aspectprogrammer.org/blogs/adrian/



James

-- 

http://www.ruby-doc.org
http://www.rubyxml.com
http://catapult.rubyforge.com
http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
http://www.jamesbritt.com


From transfire at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 00:57:48 2005
From: transfire at gmail.com (TRANS)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:57:48 -0400
Subject: [Nitro] [OT] AOP blog
In-Reply-To: <4271581B.6020201@neurogami.com>
References: <4271581B.6020201@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <4b6f054f05042821575cbb1d7e@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/28/05, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
> Given the use of AOP in Nitro/Og, I thought this might be of interest.
> 
> http://www.aspectprogrammer.org/blogs/adrian/

Interesting link. Thanks. Also, can demonstrate some Nitro AOP? It
would be cool to see some basic code examples.

Thanks,
T.



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 11:23:11 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:23:11 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OT] AOP blog
In-Reply-To: <4271581B.6020201@neurogami.com>
References: <4271581B.6020201@neurogami.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042908234f417ed0@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks James, looks really interesting!
Btw, the new Og will use aspects for logging too...

-g.

On 4/29/05, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
> Given the use of AOP in Nitro/Og, I thought this might be of interest.
> 
> http://www.aspectprogrammer.org/blogs/adrian/
> 
> James
> 
> --
> 
> http://www.ruby-doc.org
> http://www.rubyxml.com
> http://catapult.rubyforge.com
> http://orbjson.rubyforge.com
> http://ooo4r.rubyforge.com
> http://www.jamesbritt.com
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 11:25:08 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:25:08 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OT] AOP blog
In-Reply-To: <4b6f054f05042821575cbb1d7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4271581B.6020201@neurogami.com>
	<4b6f054f05042821575cbb1d7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <afd80b5405042908251f7de06@mail.gmail.com>

have a look at:

lib/og/mixin/timestamped.rb
or (even better)
test/glue/tc_aspects.rb

regards,
George.

On 4/29/05, TRANS <transfire at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/28/05, James Britt <james_b at neurogami.com> wrote:
> > Given the use of AOP in Nitro/Og, I thought this might be of interest.
> >
> > http://www.aspectprogrammer.org/blogs/adrian/
> 
> Interesting link. Thanks. Also, can demonstrate some Nitro AOP? It
> would be cool to see some basic code examples.
> 
> Thanks,
> T.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Fri Apr 29 12:59:21 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:59:21 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] [JAMPERSIST] - Enabling Quick Evaluation
In-Reply-To: <d4q82g$mr2$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d4q61g$gfk$1@sea.gmane.org> <4270A02A.6080509@navel.gr>
	<d4q82g$mr2$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d4toqc$39p$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Anastasios Koutoumanos wrote:
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>> Without the schema-auto-update, I cannot complete the template, as 
>>> instructions like "delete table manually" etc. render Og useless.
>>>
>>> Think about the impression an evaluator get's.
>>>
>>> I mean an evaluator, who is the CTO of a company, and which a 
>>> employee tries to convice about using ruby & og & ...
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/og.html
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> I would like to add this functionality myself to the codebas (og 0.16).
>>
>> i believe you've noticed the posts mentioning that G. is currently 
>> works on og. therefore i suggest you restrain from diggind into the 
>> code until the new version is released.
> 
> I believe you've noticed the posts mentioning my doubts about your 
> processing model and my time-limits (I've initialized this evaluation on 
> 2005-02-17).
> 
> I can make the "add field" automatism within estimated 2 to 4 hours, if 
> I have some answers of the the developers.
> 
> So, my question remains:
> 
>>> Can I rely on the assistance of the developers (just if I have 
>>> questions about the code / structure etc.)?
> 
> ?

Looks like the answer is no.

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 30 13:20:16 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:20:16 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - OID should be first field
Message-ID: <d50ed7$qcm$1@sea.gmane.org>

I'm wondering about some issues within the source-code.

Shouldn't "OID" be the first filed within a table?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From george.moschovitis at gmail.com  Sat Apr 30 13:37:26 2005
From: george.moschovitis at gmail.com (George Moschovitis)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:37:26 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - OID should be first field
In-Reply-To: <d50ed7$qcm$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d50ed7$qcm$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <afd80b54050430103741dfbf3f@mail.gmail.com>

It would be nice, but I think this is hard to do. Btw, this less
relevant in the new Og version which allows you to specify the primary
key if you want.

-g.

On 4/30/05, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias at lazaridis.com> wrote:
> I'm wondering about some issues within the source-code.
> 
> Shouldn't "OID" be the first filed within a table?
> 
> .
> 
> --
> http://lazaridis.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nitro-general mailing list
> Nitro-general at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/nitro-general
> 


-- 
http://nitro.rubyforge.org
http://www.joy.gr



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 30 14:00:12 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:00:12 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - OID should be first field
In-Reply-To: <afd80b54050430103741dfbf3f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d50ed7$qcm$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<afd80b54050430103741dfbf3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d50go3$vm0$1@sea.gmane.org>

George Moschovitis wrote:
> On 4/30/05, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias at lazaridis.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm wondering about some issues within the source-code.
>> 
>> Shouldn't "OID" be the first filed within a table?
>> 
> It would be nice, 

I think this is essential.

> but I think this is hard to do. 

why?

> Btw, this less 
> relevant in the new Og version which allows you to specify the
> primary key if you want.

I started to like the neutral entity "OID" - but having the flexibitily 
to ommit it, is fine

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 30 14:21:06 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:21:06 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d4rbto$oq9$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org> <d4nhfb$2el$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<d4rbto$oq9$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d50hv9$358$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>>
>>> I create a class, instantiate an object and save it within an
>>> sqlite3.
>>>
>>> I retrieve this object.
>>>
>>> [the table was created, and I load the object back]
>>>
>>>
>>> In the next step, I add a new "property" to the class.
>>>
>>> I instantiate an new object, and try to save it.
>>>
>>> but: the save fails with an "field not fould" exception.
>>>
>>> [the new property i've added]
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
>>>  class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).

see code below for a partial solution (one step missing to become 
functional for "add field").
> 
> [I'm not familar with SQL and the sqlite-ruby. I would need assistance 
> in executing the SQL and getting standard ruby objects]


> within sqlite.rb

	 
#----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	def table_fields(klass, db)
		conn = db.get_connection()	
		tfields = []
		begin
			conn.store.table_info( klass::DBTABLE ) {|field|
				tfields << field			
			}
		rescue Exception => ex
			# exception handling
		end
		
		return tfields
	end
	
	 
#---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

	
	def table_field_count(klass, db)
		# returns number of fields defined in a table, 0 if none (table 
non-existent)
	
		conn = db.get_connection()			
		counter = 0
		begin
			conn.store.table_info( klass::DBTABLE) {|field|
				counter += 1		
			}
		rescue Exception => ex
			#TODO exception handling
		end
		
		return counter
	end
	
	 
#---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


	def field_exists(field, tfield, idx)
		val = tfield[idx][1] + ' ' + tfield[idx][2]
		if val == field[idx]
			return true
		else
			return false
		end
	end

	 
#---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


	def field_process(field,tfield)
	    for idx in field.size
	        if field_exists(field, tfield, idx)
	            p fiedl[idx]
	            # sql_alter_table
		end
	    end
	    #execute sql
	    #execute
	end
	
#---------------------------------------------------------------------------

- I cannot find the "alter table" command within the sqlite3-ruby library.

any ideas?

- the code is partially untested (field process method)

[btw: it is not funny to invest time without getting any feedback.]

-

> # -------------------------------------------------
> # Existend Core Method
> # -------------------------------------------------
> 
> def create_table(klass,db)
> 
>   conn = db.get_connection
> 
>   fields = create_fields(klass)   
> 
>   if table_exists?(klass::DBTABLE)
>     # cleanup
>     update_table()
>   end
>        
> # -------------------------------------------------
> 
> Additionally, the the answer to the question in code:
> 
> "# gmosx: any idea how to better test this?"
> 
> should be this:

see method "table_field_count"

>> please let me know if I should refine this further.

?

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com



From ilias at lazaridis.com  Sat Apr 30 14:41:47 2005
From: ilias at lazaridis.com (Ilias Lazaridis)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:41:47 +0300
Subject: [Nitro] [OG] - Automated table modification / extension
In-Reply-To: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <d3mt18$4lk$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d50j62$66c$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]

> How do I setup OG that it automaticaly match the table to the updated
> class-definition? (= automaticly add columns).

after testing a little bit within the OG codebase:

-

At least SQLite3 has very limited support for table alteration.

The better alternative would be possibly:

  if table_exist
    table_create() # standard create method, suffix "_new"
    table_copy()   # generic copy method, usable for db-migration, too
    transaction
      table_rename() # <class-name>_old
      table_rename() # <class-name>_new => <class-name>
      table_delete() # delete old table
    end
  end

.

-- 
http://lazaridis.com