From curt at hibbs.com Thu Feb 17 14:53:01 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Thu Feb 17 14:49:24 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] RE: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I meant this to be an invitation to subscribe, but I checked the "subscribe" checkbox instead of the "invite" checkbox. Please feel free to unsubscribe if you don't want this. Curt > -----Original Message----- > From: vit-discuss-bounces@rubyforge.org > [mailto:vit-discuss-bounces@rubyforge.org]On Behalf Of > vit-discuss-request@rubyforge.org > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:45 PM > To: curt@hibbs.com > Subject: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list > > > There is general agreement that Ruby web site is in need of > improvement. After encouragement from Matz, we created a project > on RubyForge and this mailing list to collaborate on making this > a reality. > > Please subscribe to this mailing list if you want to participate. > > Also, we just found out that there is a group in Japan who also > started a project to work on this last month. We hope to > collaborate with them so that, between us, we can put the best > possible face on Ruby. > > After a day of getting the subscritions in place we can talk > about how to proceed. > Welcome to the vit-discuss@rubyforge.org mailing list! > > To post to this list, send your email to: > > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > > General information about the mailing list is at: > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > > If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to > or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your > subscription page at: > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/options/vit-discuss/curt%40hibbs.com > > You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: > > vit-discuss-request@rubyforge.org > > with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the > quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. > > You must know your password to change your options (including changing > the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: > > xautmi > > Normally, Mailman will remind you of your rubyforge.org mailing list > passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you > prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to > unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on > your options page that will email your current password to you. > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 > From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 20:45:43 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 17 20:41:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Checking in Message-ID: <421548C7.5060105@gmail.com> Just saying hello, and verifying that I'm on this list. I got some confirmation E-mail that said I could go to some site to check.set my settings. SO I go visit, take a look, and leave. Next thing I know I;m getting a message that I'm unsubscribed. Frickin' Python tools .... Any way, Hello. James Britt From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Feb 17 21:43:27 2005 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu Feb 17 21:39:50 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] RE: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4215564F.5080505@johnwlong.com> Thanks Curt, I just discovered this as I was subscribing on my own. Sounds like rubyforge won't let you subscribe twice. =) -- John Curt Hibbs wrote: > Sorry, I meant this to be an invitation to subscribe, but I checked the > "subscribe" checkbox instead of the "invite" checkbox. > > Please feel free to unsubscribe if you don't want this. > > Curt > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: vit-discuss-bounces@rubyforge.org >>[mailto:vit-discuss-bounces@rubyforge.org]On Behalf Of >>vit-discuss-request@rubyforge.org >>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:45 PM >>To: curt@hibbs.com >>Subject: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list >> >> >>There is general agreement that Ruby web site is in need of >>improvement. After encouragement from Matz, we created a project >>on RubyForge and this mailing list to collaborate on making this >>a reality. >> >>Please subscribe to this mailing list if you want to participate. >> >>Also, we just found out that there is a group in Japan who also >>started a project to work on this last month. We hope to >>collaborate with them so that, between us, we can put the best >>possible face on Ruby. >> >>After a day of getting the subscritions in place we can talk >>about how to proceed. >>Welcome to the vit-discuss@rubyforge.org mailing list! >> >>To post to this list, send your email to: >> >> vit-discuss@rubyforge.org >> >>General information about the mailing list is at: >> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss >> >>If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to >>or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your >>subscription page at: >> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/options/vit-discuss/curt%40hibbs.com >> >>You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: >> >> vit-discuss-request@rubyforge.org >> >>with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the >>quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. >> >>You must know your password to change your options (including changing >>the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: >> >> xautmi >> >>Normally, Mailman will remind you of your rubyforge.org mailing list >>passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you >>prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to >>unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on >>your options page that will email your current password to you. >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 >> > > > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From ezra at yakima-herald.com Thu Feb 17 22:47:43 2005 From: ezra at yakima-herald.com (Ezra Zygmuntowicz) Date: Thu Feb 17 22:46:00 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] RE: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list In-Reply-To: <4215564F.5080505@johnwlong.com> References: <4215564F.5080505@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: Yep I had the same experience as well. But now I am getting the list fine. So hello to all and I look forward to working with you folks for the greater good our beloved Ruby. -Ezra On Feb 17, 2005, at 6:43 PM, John W. Long wrote: > Thanks Curt, I just discovered this as I was subscribing on my own. > Sounds like rubyforge won't let you subscribe twice. =) > > -- > John > > > Curt Hibbs wrote: >> Sorry, I meant this to be an invitation to subscribe, but I checked >> the >> "subscribe" checkbox instead of the "invite" checkbox. >> Please feel free to unsubscribe if you don't want this. >> Curt >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vit-discuss-bounces@rubyforge.org >>> [mailto:vit-discuss-bounces@rubyforge.org]On Behalf Of >>> vit-discuss-request@rubyforge.org >>> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:45 PM >>> To: curt@hibbs.com >>> Subject: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list >>> >>> >>> There is general agreement that Ruby web site is in need of >>> improvement. After encouragement from Matz, we created a project >>> on RubyForge and this mailing list to collaborate on making this >>> a reality. >>> >>> Please subscribe to this mailing list if you want to participate. >>> >>> Also, we just found out that there is a group in Japan who also >>> started a project to work on this last month. We hope to >>> collaborate with them so that, between us, we can put the best >>> possible face on Ruby. >>> >>> After a day of getting the subscritions in place we can talk >>> about how to proceed. >>> Welcome to the vit-discuss@rubyforge.org mailing list! >>> >>> To post to this list, send your email to: >>> >>> vit-discuss@rubyforge.org >>> >>> General information about the mailing list is at: >>> >>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss >>> >>> If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to >>> or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your >>> subscription page at: >>> >>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/options/vit-discuss/curt%40hibbs.com >>> >>> You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: >>> >>> vit-discuss-request@rubyforge.org >>> >>> with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the >>> quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. >>> >>> You must know your password to change your options (including >>> changing >>> the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: >>> >>> xautmi >>> >>> Normally, Mailman will remind you of your rubyforge.org mailing list >>> passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you >>> prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to >>> unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button >>> on >>> your options page that will email your current password to you. >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> vit-discuss mailing list >> vit-discuss@rubyforge.org >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > > -Ezra Zygmuntowicz Yakima Herald-Republic WebMaster 509-577-7732 ezra@yakima-herald.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/vit-discuss/attachments/20050217/e874ab01/attachment.bin From zdennis at mktec.com Thu Feb 17 23:11:59 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:12:54 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <4215564F.5080505@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <42156B0F.3080903@mktec.com> I'm sure there will probably be a whole lot of folks joining in the next few days, but those already here. Hello! Thanks for opening this mailing list up to the public, instead of just having a few people invited. This was great, and I"m glad that Matz and others from the www-admin group are willing, excited and open for this to "team" effort to come together. Is there a formal plan of attack to take, or is the list going to wait a few days until more folks have subscribed? If all of this was already pointed out...i apologize for asking redundant questions. Happying Rubying! Zach From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Feb 17 23:26:27 2005 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu Feb 17 23:22:52 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Hello In-Reply-To: <42156B0F.3080903@mktec.com> References: <4215564F.5080505@johnwlong.com> <42156B0F.3080903@mktec.com> Message-ID: <42156E73.8050602@johnwlong.com> Zach Dennis wrote: > I'm sure there will probably be a whole lot of folks joining in the > next few days, but those already here. Hello! Welcome Zach! > Is there a formal plan of attack to take, or is the list going to wait > a few days until more folks have subscribed? The current plan is to wait a day or so until more folks subscribe. Feel free to begin adding stuff to the wiki though: http://vit.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl -- John From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 18 06:21:44 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 18 06:18:05 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Hello In-Reply-To: <42156E73.8050602@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: John W. Long wrote: > > Zach Dennis wrote: > > I'm sure there will probably be a whole lot of folks joining in the > > next few days, but those already here. Hello! > > Welcome Zach! > > > Is there a formal plan of attack to take, or is the list going to > wait > a few days until more folks have subscribed? > > The current plan is to wait a day or so until more folks subscribe. Feel > free to begin adding stuff to the wiki though: > > http://vit.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl Yes everyone... feel free to collect your thoughts on the wiki while we give people some time to subscribe! Curt From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 18 06:23:38 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 18 06:20:01 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Checking in In-Reply-To: <421548C7.5060105@gmail.com> Message-ID: James Britt wrote: > > Just saying hello, and verifying that I'm on this list. > > I got some confirmation E-mail that said I could go to some site to > check.set my settings. SO I go visit, take a look, and leave. > > Next thing I know I;m getting a message that I'm unsubscribed. > > > Frickin' Python tools .... > > > Any way, Hello. That was my fault. I had subscribed you twice under two different email addresses. When I noticed that I unsubscribed one of the (I assume that you don't want duplicates of each message :-). Curt From flgr at ccan.de Fri Feb 18 07:44:07 2005 From: flgr at ccan.de (Florian Gross) Date: Fri Feb 18 07:40:33 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] RE: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4215E317.7090204@ccan.de> Curt Hibbs wrote: > Sorry, I meant this to be an invitation to subscribe, but I checked the > "subscribe" checkbox instead of the "invite" checkbox. > > Please feel free to unsubscribe if you don't want this. I'd prefer reading and writing via gmane. I'm going to do a request for the list being added as gmane.comp.lang.ruby.vit if you're okay with that. From chneukirchen at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 16:49:39 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Fri Feb 18 09:12:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] RE: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list In-Reply-To: (Curt Hibbs's message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:53:01 -0600") References: Message-ID: "Curt Hibbs" writes: > Sorry, I meant this to be an invitation to subscribe, but I checked the > "subscribe" checkbox instead of the "invite" checkbox. > > Please feel free to unsubscribe if you don't want this. > > Curt No, thank you for subscribing me! -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From curt.hibbs at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:24:15 2005 From: curt.hibbs at gmail.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 18 09:50:07 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] RE: Welcome to the "vit-discuss" mailing list In-Reply-To: <4215E317.7090204@ccan.de> Message-ID: Florian Gross wrote: > > Curt Hibbs wrote: > > > Sorry, I meant this to be an invitation to subscribe, but I checked the > > "subscribe" checkbox instead of the "invite" checkbox. > > > > Please feel free to unsubscribe if you don't want this. > > I'd prefer reading and writing via gmane. > > I'm going to do a request for the list being added as > gmane.comp.lang.ruby.vit if you're okay with that. No problem at all, please feel free to do so. Curt From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Feb 18 12:15:39 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri Feb 18 12:12:02 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Now, where were we? Message-ID: <421622BB.1050007@whytheluckystiff.net> Hi, everybody. Consider the wealth of discussion that has been rolling down the snowhill for the last few months. It's a raging and incongruous boulder. Let's size ite up. Here are what I consider to be the essentials of the discussion so far: * The quintessential ruby-talk thread is the "Best ways to accelerate Ruby's popularity," which lived out its existence for a month or so, throughout January. * I think the thread (and others which spawned from it at that time) really got moving when Ben Giddings stripped ruby-lang.org down to its essentials and everyone started thinking about what those essentials were exactly. * I posted a mockup of a hypothetical Ruby.org. The comments are especially useful, as the discussion is primarily centered on the page layout. * Useful criticism from gab: * A related topic deals with an official Ruby manual, which I think is very pertinent to our work here. John Long's designs were posted on RedHanded in early January. * The idea of giving an official look, ruby-lang.org subdomains, or a common header to community sites has been brought up a lot. I think the prevailing feeling about this has been that such an umbrella might be too much work to keep aloof. But, a good point. * Discussion of the more dilapidated parts of ruby-lang.org. I think we can all agree that its important that ruby-lang.org be up-to-date and reflect the hectic activity that truly is Ruby. * Another recurring topic is the state of ruby-doc.org. There is a prevailing notion that ruby-doc requires closer attention. Which is very interesting, considering that RubyGarden has avoided scrutiny, even though it suffers from many of its own issues. * Other related ruby-talk threads: _why From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Feb 18 12:19:16 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri Feb 18 12:15:38 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Team organization Message-ID: <42162394.2030100@whytheluckystiff.net> I sorted through a lot of private correspondence, in addition to the ruby-talk discussion, to see if there was anything worth passing on. I think this message from David Hansson hits the spot concerning this list and the organization of the Ruby-Lang team. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Heinemeier Hansson Subject: Re: Should I add you? [was FW: Ruby Visual Identity Team] Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:41:20 +0100 Size: 2670 Url: http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/vit-discuss/attachments/20050218/3dea90d5/RubyVisualIdentityTeam.eml From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 18 13:13:46 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 18 13:10:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Team organization In-Reply-To: <42162394.2030100@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: why the lucky wrote: > > I sorted through a lot of private correspondence, in addition to the > ruby-talk discussion, to see if there was anything worth passing on. I > think this message from David Hansson hits the spot concerning this list > and the organization of the Ruby-Lang team. Yes, I agree completely -- this looks like a very workable approach that won't get mired down in never-ending talk. Curt From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 18 13:22:16 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 18 13:18:41 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Now, where were we? In-Reply-To: <421622BB.1050007@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: Wow... good summary! One thing that I would add is that we need setup some kind of working relationship with the Japanese group that (unknown to us) started something similar last month. Curt why the lucky stiff wrote: > > Hi, everybody. Consider the wealth of discussion that has been rolling > down the snowhill for the last few months. It's a raging and > incongruous boulder. Let's size ite up. > > Here are what I consider to be the essentials of the discussion so far: > > * The quintessential ruby-talk thread is the "Best ways to accelerate > Ruby's popularity," which lived out its existence for a month or so, > throughout January. > 596?124484-128974> > > * I think the thread (and others which spawned from it at that time) > really got moving when Ben Giddings stripped ruby-lang.org down to its > essentials and everyone started thinking about what those essentials > were exactly. > > > * I posted a mockup of a hypothetical Ruby.org. The comments are > especially useful, as the discussion is primarily centered on the page > layout. > > > * Useful criticism from gab: > > * A related topic deals with an official Ruby manual, which I think is > very pertinent to our work here. John Long's designs were posted on > RedHanded in early January. > > > > * The idea of giving an official look, ruby-lang.org subdomains, or a > common header to community sites has been brought up a lot. > > I think the prevailing feeling about this has been that such an umbrella > might be too much work to keep aloof. > > But, a good point. > > > * Discussion of the more dilapidated parts of ruby-lang.org. I think we > can all agree that its important that ruby-lang.org be up-to-date and > reflect the hectic activity that truly is Ruby. > > > * Another recurring topic is the state of ruby-doc.org. There is a > prevailing notion that ruby-doc requires closer attention. Which is > very interesting, considering that RubyGarden has avoided scrutiny, even > though it suffers from many of its own issues. > > > * Other related ruby-talk threads: > _why _______________________________________________ vit-discuss mailing list vit-discuss@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Feb 18 13:33:10 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri Feb 18 13:29:31 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Now, where were we? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421634E6.6020204@whytheluckystiff.net> Curt Hibbs wrote: >Wow... good summary! > >One thing that I would add is that we need setup some kind of working >relationship with the Japanese group that (unknown to us) started something >similar last month. > > > Curt, have you e-mailed Maki and invited him to join? He's really accessible. Shugo Maeda should be invited into this discussion as well. If you do have problems getting a hold of them, I can talk to Daigo, who is a member of the Ruby group mentioned in the ruby-talk post. _why From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 18 13:43:06 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 18 13:39:33 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Now, where were we? In-Reply-To: <421634E6.6020204@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: why the lucky stiff wrote: > > Curt Hibbs wrote: > > >Wow... good summary! > > > >One thing that I would add is that we need setup some kind of working > >relationship with the Japanese group that (unknown to us) > started something > >similar last month. > > > > > > > Curt, have you e-mailed Maki and invited him to join? He's really > accessible. Shugo Maeda should be invited into this discussion as well. Well, as it turns out, both of them are among the group that I "accidentally" subscribed to this list. So, they should be getting all of these messages. > If you do have problems getting a hold of them, I can talk to Daigo, who > is a member of the Ruby group mentioned in the ruby-talk post. Can you go ahead and ask Daigo to do that, just in case these messages are getting routed to spam folders and they are not seeing them? Thanks, Curt From timsuth at ihug.co.nz Fri Feb 18 17:11:03 2005 From: timsuth at ihug.co.nz (Tim Sutherland) Date: Fri Feb 18 17:07:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Team organization In-Reply-To: <42162394.2030100@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42162394.2030100@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <20050218221103.GA3355@alien.zone> Ben Giddings wrote: [...] > === People I hope will volunteer === [...] > Tim Sutherland > His weekly summaries are great, so hopefully he could be involved in > adding something like that to the main Ruby site. [...] I'd be very happy for this to be on the main site. I'll be writing a Rails app soon to help with creating the weekly news. This can just output HTML, text, RSS etc., so I won't need a Wiki like I use now. Glad you guys are working on improving the site. From chad at chadfowler.com Sat Feb 19 14:03:44 2005 From: chad at chadfowler.com (Chad Fowler) Date: Sat Feb 19 14:00:04 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Team organization In-Reply-To: <20050218221103.GA3355@alien.zone> References: <42162394.2030100@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050218221103.GA3355@alien.zone> Message-ID: <8227594439f5bd602a606302a2807fe0@chadfowler.com> On 18-Feb-05, at 5:11 PM, Tim Sutherland wrote: > Ben Giddings wrote: > [...] >> === People I hope will volunteer === > [...] >> Tim Sutherland >> His weekly summaries are great, so hopefully he could be involved in >> adding something like that to the main Ruby site. > [...] > > I'd be very happy for this to be on the main site. > > I'll be writing a Rails app soon to help with creating the weekly > news. This > can just output HTML, text, RSS etc., so I won't need a Wiki like I > use now. > > Cool! If you'd like to host it on RubyGarden, let me know and we can install it. Chad From maki at rubycolor.org Sun Feb 20 03:08:35 2005 From: maki at rubycolor.org (Masayoshi Takahashi) Date: Sun Feb 20 03:02:44 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Now, where were we? In-Reply-To: References: <421634E6.6020204@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <20050220.170835.45867350.maki@rubycolor.org> Hello all, "Curt Hibbs" wrote: > why the lucky stiff wrote: > > > > Curt Hibbs wrote: > > > > >Wow... good summary! Year, it's very helpful to me. Thanks! > > >One thing that I would add is that we need setup some kind of working > > >relationship with the Japanese group that (unknown to us) > > started something > > >similar last month. > > > > > > > > > > > Curt, have you e-mailed Maki and invited him to join? He's really > > accessible. Shugo Maeda should be invited into this discussion as well. > > Well, as it turns out, both of them are among the group that I > "accidentally" subscribed to this list. So, they should be getting all of > these messages. Yes, I'm here and read messages (thanks, Curt!). sorry too late response. We ruby-lang.org revise (or 'review'? I don't know an exactly word) team consist of Ruby user/hackers, not designers. So it's hard to suggest something in visual ascpects, but we do them in functional aspects. I'm also in www-admin list. I guess the members in www-admin are too busy to maintain Ruby itself, so IMHO we don't have enough time and power to update web site. We need your help. Regards, Masayoshi 'Maki' Takahashi E-mail: maki@rubycolor.org From curt at hibbs.com Sun Feb 20 05:16:43 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Sun Feb 20 05:13:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Getting Started [was Now, where were we?] In-Reply-To: <20050220.170835.45867350.maki@rubycolor.org> Message-ID: Masayoshi Takahashi wrote: > > Yes, I'm here and read messages (thanks, Curt!). sorry too late response. > > We ruby-lang.org revise (or 'review'? I don't know an exactly word) > team consist of Ruby user/hackers, not designers. So it's hard > to suggest something in visual aspects, but we do them in > functional aspects. > > I'm also in www-admin list. I guess the members in www-admin are > too busy to maintain Ruby itself, so IMHO we don't have enough time > and power to update web site. We need your help. Excellent... it looks like we can form a very productive partnership! Here is how I would like to see us to proceed. Let's take our charter from matz's post: * form a team to design the appearance * form another team to choose the CMS * create prototype on that CMS The Visual Team ------------------------ We need pick a core visual design team of no more than 3 people to design the new ruby-lang.org site. These people should be actual producing contributors, not mere commentators. This group would do the hard work of the redesign in tight collaboration and periodically present their results to the rest of us for feedback. This feedback would be considered advisements which the core team would be free to accept or reject at their discretion. This should give each of us influence over the final result while avoiding the gridlock and committee-style blandness that often accompanies larger groups. In the meantime we should all post our ideas on what the new ruby-lany.org should be (or should not be) as input to the soon-to-be-formed core team. To help kick off this part, my choices for the core team are: - Why the Lucky Stiff - John Long - Ben Giddings What are yours? The CMS Team ----------------------- At the same time we need to select a team that will be responsible for choosing the CMS that will power the new site. This team would research the candidates, present their choice(s) to this group for feedback and, ultimately, create a prototype installation with which the design team would implement their design. The same approach should apply here: no more than 3 people on the team who are willing to be active contributors. Feedback from all of us would be considered advisory, and the team retains the authority to make the decisions. Here are my suggestions to kick off this part: - Use Ruby based solutions. Whatever capabilities the team decides to include (wiki, blog, etc.), I think they should be written in Ruby. Its unlikely that there would be an all-in-one Ruby solution, so this would mean the team may have to write some glue code to tie the pieces together. I don't have anyone to nominate for this team. I think that people who have the time and interest to do this should volunteer. If we have too many volunteers then we'll have to pick. ========= Feel free to disagree with the organizational outline I layed out above. But be prepared to present concrete alternatives, because above all I want us to get moving forward as soon as possible. Curt From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Sun Feb 20 23:57:04 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Sun Feb 20 23:48:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Getting Started [was Now, where were we?] In-Reply-To: References: <20050220.170835.45867350.maki@rubycolor.org> Message-ID: <20050221045704.GA76426@topi.cc> Curt Hibbs (curt@hibbs.com) wrote: > > * form a team to design the appearance > * form another team to choose the CMS > * create prototype on that CMS > It seems like the two teams should be one team. If the core team can make the prototype a product of the design phase, I think we'll save time. Then, from the prototype, we could get some of the folks from this list to storm in and help us fill in the blanks. I mean we all know Ruby, right? Concerning choice of a CMS, could we just open up the discussion to the entire list and let Curt and Maki make the final call? Curt, since he's the leader chosen by Matz, and Maki, since he knows what www-admin need. _why From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 07:05:45 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 07:02:01 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Getting Started [was Now, where were we?] In-Reply-To: <20050221045704.GA76426@topi.cc> Message-ID: why the lucky stiff wrote: > > Curt Hibbs (curt@hibbs.com) wrote: > > > > * form a team to design the appearance > > * form another team to choose the CMS > > * create prototype on that CMS > > > > It seems like the two teams should be one team. If the core team can > make the prototype a product of the design phase, I think we'll save > time. Then, from the prototype, we could get some of the folks from > this list to storm in and help us fill in the blanks. I mean we all > know Ruby, right? On further reflection, I think I agree with you. There's really no advantage two separating this into two teams and there are distinct disadvantages. I really didn't think that one through. Curt > Concerning choice of a CMS, could we just open up the discussion to the > entire list and let Curt and Maki make the final call? Curt, since he's > the leader chosen by Matz, and Maki, since he knows what www-admin need. > > _why From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Mon Feb 21 08:34:41 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Mon Feb 21 08:41:58 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. Message-ID: I know that the committees are not fully formed yet, but can I put in a plea for accessibility to be considered as a high priority? I've had a few cases on the present Rubylang.org site of columns flowing into each other, because I use large print. Some would say huge print :-) at 25 points, but I knew someone who could only really access 60 point print comfortably. [Remember, not all visually impaired people know braille, and for some it is inaccessible anyway due to a poor sense of touch, e.g. due to diabetic neuropathy. In the UK alone there are an estimated 24,000 deafblind people[1] who would find using synthetic speech difficult, or impossible, and some of whom would manage by means of large print.] I have had problems on the redhanded site, which I tried to raise with _why, but I think the reason I got no response may well be due to his looking after Hobix, Syck, redcloth, and his own site, and that's just the stuff he does that I know about. Basically, code in the left column ends up as being too wide, and the column is not in a scrollable
, so the text disappears under the right hand column, so bits are missing from it. I suggested adding 'margins: auto;" to the stylesheet. Another thing: Could there be alternative stylesheets? I've had people with dyslexia tell me that serif fonts (like Times) are difficult to read, whereas fonts like Helvetica or Ariel are easy, and colours can be an issue for dyslexics too. Some of these things can be overridden by the browser, following the user's preferences, but if the site enforces its own standards that doesn't happen. I might appear to be on a disability rights soapbox here, but my point is that the aim of this exercise is to bring more people in to the Ruby community, so it would be best to avaid barriers which may keep people out. Making the site accessible improves it for people browsing with (mobile|cell) phones -- if you can tell what images are without having to see (download) them for example. There are projects to browse the web by telephone -- i.e. verbally. Some people access the web by e-mail[2]. So we need to remove as many assumptions as possible. Thank you, Hugh [1] http://www.deafblind.org.uk/ [2] http://www.mail-archive.com/accmail@listserv.aol.com/msg01870.html From chneukirchen at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 08:51:29 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Mon Feb 21 08:47:32 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Getting Started [was Now, where were we?] In-Reply-To: <20050221045704.GA76426@topi.cc> (why the lucky stiff's message of "Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:57:04 -0500") References: <20050220.170835.45867350.maki@rubycolor.org> <20050221045704.GA76426@topi.cc> Message-ID: why the lucky stiff writes: > Curt Hibbs (curt@hibbs.com) wrote: >> >> * form a team to design the appearance >> * form another team to choose the CMS >> * create prototype on that CMS >> > > It seems like the two teams should be one team. If the core team can > make the prototype a product of the design phase, I think we'll save > time. Then, from the prototype, we could get some of the folks from > this list to storm in and help us fill in the blanks. I mean we all > know Ruby, right? > > Concerning choice of a CMS, could we just open up the discussion to the > entire list and let Curt and Maki make the final call? Curt, since he's > the leader chosen by Matz, and Maki, since he knows what www-admin need. What are the requirements for the CMS? I think we need to focus on the (future) contents and the structure of the site first before we can choose a CMS. Content and structure also strongly influence the design, too. > _why -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From dblack at wobblini.net Mon Feb 21 09:09:30 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Mon Feb 21 09:05:46 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi -- On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > I know that the committees are not fully formed yet, but > can I put in a plea for accessibility to be considered as > a high priority? Absolutely, as far as I and (I trust) everyone here is concerned. This should be a sine qua non of any plan. We have colorblind, blind, visually impaired, and deaf people in our community (just to enumerate those I am personally aware of for whom the issues you discuss might be crucial), and the stylesheet mechanism, along with considerations of underlying design, should be leveraged to make things accessible to everyone. > I might appear to be on a disability rights soapbox here, but my > point is that the aim of this exercise is to bring more people in to > the Ruby community, so it would be best to avaid barriers which may > keep people out. The only soapbox you're on is the Ruby soapbox, and that's fine :-) The information and scenarios you've described are enlightening. David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From zdennis at mktec.com Mon Feb 21 09:15:41 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Mon Feb 21 09:11:57 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4219ED0D.3060105@mktec.com> David A. Black wrote: > Hi -- > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > >> I know that the committees are not fully formed yet, but >> can I put in a plea for accessibility to be considered as >> a high priority? > > > Absolutely, as far as I and (I trust) everyone here is concerned. > This should be a sine qua non of any plan. We have colorblind, blind, > visually impaired, and deaf people in our community (just to enumerate > those I am personally aware of for whom the issues you discuss might > be crucial), and the stylesheet mechanism, along with considerations > of underlying design, should be leveraged to make things accessible to > everyone. > I like sites that have the [small font] [LARGE FONT] etc...(i only have two sizes when typing in plain text, so visualize with me) option on their web sites to allow for the user to switch the font size on the page. This may be another option to look at (I know browsers allow you to change font size as well). Zach From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 09:37:43 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 09:34:00 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David A. Black wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > > > I know that the committees are not fully formed yet, but > > can I put in a plea for accessibility to be considered as > > a high priority? > > Absolutely, as far as I and (I trust) everyone here is concerned. > This should be a sine qua non of any plan. We have colorblind, blind, > visually impaired, and deaf people in our community (just to enumerate > those I am personally aware of for whom the issues you discuss might > be crucial), and the stylesheet mechanism, along with considerations > of underlying design, should be leveraged to make things accessible to > everyone. Yes, yes, yes... that's the whole point of having this list in the first place! > > I might appear to be on a disability rights soapbox here, but my > > point is that the aim of this exercise is to bring more people in to > > the Ruby community, so it would be best to avaid barriers which may > > keep people out. > > The only soapbox you're on is the Ruby soapbox, and that's fine :-) > The information and scenarios you've described are enlightening. +1 Curt From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Mon Feb 21 09:42:35 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Mon Feb 21 09:38:55 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: <4219ED0D.3060105@mktec.com> References: <4219ED0D.3060105@mktec.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Zach Dennis wrote: > I like sites that have the [small font] [LARGE FONT] etc...(i only have two Thanks for people's support on this issue. I think we could probably use that (as ruby-doc.org does to good effect) and stylesheets as well, to support the widest number of browser types. Hugh From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Mon Feb 21 10:11:31 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:13:16 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Other usability stuff. Message-ID: In case this helps people, I've found reading Donald A Norman's book "The Design of Everyday things" which is the same book as "The Psychology of Everyday Things" useful in understanding usability problems. While he doesn't really give a list of points in one place in the book, there are common themes throughout it which would apply to making a website helpful. For example. the idea that the difficulties can broadly be broken down into "gulf of execution" -- how do I get from "I want this to happen" to making it happen, and "gulf of evaluation" -- the sytem has done something, which outputs show me this and how do I interpret those outputs? Also putting knowledge into the world so that you can look at something and see how to use it, or keeping it in your head, which may be quicker once learnt. Also making the design model accord with the mental model the user will build given the interface. I also found "About Face" by Alan Cooper, which is now About Face 2 now, I think, and the [IMHO ghastly titled :-)] "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" which covers much of the same ground, but is more concise, and cheaper. http://www.cooper.com/content/insights/cooper_books.asp#TIARTA Insights from these: people hate being made to feel stupid, so design error processes so as not to cause that feeling. Get the computer to do all it can: this often doesn't happen -- for example one can only find documents by name or date or contents, not what one was also working on at about the same time. Computer Scientists like trees, but they are not natural for most users to navigate. [Probably not a useful insight for a progamming website :-)] Make as much reversible as possible, so when the user fouls up they can go back: "Delete?"; "yes"; "Are you sure?"; Of course - "Yes" -- Oh, botheration! People may get different stuff from this, such as his use of Personas. Hugh From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 10:17:19 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:13:38 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming Message-ID: Let's use this thread to do some brainstorming on the ruby-lang-org site. - What should is be/do/look? - What should it not be/do/look? There are no rules. Post whatever comes to your mind. Feel free to debate points or not to debate. The point is, let's get everyone's thoughts and concerns down in writing. Then we can collect/categorize/prioritize/etc. Curt From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 10:17:57 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:14:15 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team Message-ID: Please use this thread to post who you think should be part of the three person core team. Feel free to nominate yourself (or exclude yourself if someone else nominated you). And feel free to post a testimonial for anyone. I'd like to choose a core team before the end of this week so that we can maintain some momentum. Thanks, Curt From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 10:23:19 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:19:35 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Curt Hibbs wrote: > > Please use this thread to post who you think should be part of the three > person core team. Feel free to nominate yourself (or exclude yourself if > someone else nominated you). And feel free to post a testimonial > for anyone. I wrote this before, but I wanted to get it into this thread. My choices for core team are: - Why the Lucky Stiff - John Long - Ben Giddings Curt From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Mon Feb 21 10:29:25 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:25:39 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Curt Hibbs wrote: > I wrote this before, but I wanted to get it into this thread. My > choices for > core team are: > > - Why the Lucky Stiff ditto on _why from me the simple mock up replacement was very cute i'm sure he'll bring along good aesthetics and a degree of *needed* simplicity to any new developments :) Alex From chad at chadfowler.com Mon Feb 21 11:39:46 2005 From: chad at chadfowler.com (chad@chadfowler.com) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:29:38 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24226.208.252.131.50.1109003986.squirrel@208.252.131.50> > Let's use this thread to do some brainstorming on the ruby-lang-org site. > > - What should is be/do/look? > - What should it not be/do/look? > > There are no rules. Post whatever comes to your mind. Feel free to debate > points or not to debate. > > The point is, let's get everyone's thoughts and concerns down in writing. > Then we can collect/categorize/prioritize/etc. > I don't have a lot to say, and I don't want to muddy the waters too much with my input. My number one suggestion is to put as little as possible on the site to make it useful. I mean this both visually (keep it minimal--why's mockup is great in this way) and functionally. Chad From blaumag at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 10:48:11 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:44:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> Message-ID: <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> I want to nominate myself as a designer (been doing that for the last eight years). Michel. From zdennis at mktec.com Mon Feb 21 10:48:11 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:44:28 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421A02BB.4090907@mktec.com> Curt Hibbs wrote: > Let's use this thread to do some brainstorming on the ruby-lang-org site. > > - What should is be/do/look? - simple, clean, elegant - nice logo - perhaps some background image for menu bar or buttons (maybe a little gradient) - the search should be closer to the top of the page and better emphasized, right now you dont' see it unless you are specifically looking for it > - What should it not be/do/look? - simple and clean is good, but if the site looks like it was created in 1994 then I think we are stepping on our own toes - not a whole lot of images, and no rotating images (like animated gifs) - dont go all red and white, (but if it is all red and white make sure there is more white then red). - When everything is red it is hard to differentiate visually links from emphasized text from borders from headers from background colors Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Mon Feb 21 10:48:57 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:45:13 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421A02E9.60605@mktec.com> Curt Hibbs wrote: > Curt Hibbs wrote: > >>Please use this thread to post who you think should be part of the three >>person core team. Feel free to nominate yourself (or exclude yourself if >>someone else nominated you). And feel free to post a testimonial >>for anyone. > > > I wrote this before, but I wanted to get it into this thread. My choices for > core team are: > > - Why the Lucky Stiff > - John Long > - Ben Giddings Looks good to me, Zach From chneukirchen at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 10:52:32 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:48:33 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> (Alexander Kellett's message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:29:25 +0100") References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> Message-ID: Alexander Kellett writes: > On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Curt Hibbs wrote: >> I wrote this before, but I wanted to get it into this thread. My >> choices for >> core team are: >> >> - Why the Lucky Stiff > > ditto on _why from me > the simple mock up replacement > was very cute i'm sure he'll > bring along good aesthetics and > a degree of *needed* simplicity > to any new developments :) > > Alex +1 -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Mon Feb 21 10:50:22 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Mon Feb 21 10:49:32 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Following up on Chad Fowler's point: I think (Due to D.A. Norman's book) we can keep things simple if we group things: Download links. Possibly with download stats. Binaries, binaries and more binaries! It's very easy to build ruby, but just how many platforms can we show have binaries? More than netbsd? Devloper links Links to bugs database. link to RAA, but does the RAA itself come under the remit of this or Links to svn/cvs bases for x.y, x.y+1 branches for ruby Possibly with a nice graph of lines of code like the Pike people have http://pike.ida.liu.se/ so we can see how things are progressing. Ruby news links. Lots of sites to look at for this. Obviously want our own RSS feed. And _why has refs to some YAMLified news (!okay/news) feeds, so maybe we can yield those, too? not? FAQs, and maybe mirrors of the ruby-doc stuff just in case something goes pop! The problem is that keeping it very minimal will undersell ruby to some kinds of developer, so I think the ideal is to have all the information reachable fairly quickly, but no one section should overwhelm the most-easily-overwhelmed visitor. Ruby has great power, and many facilities (Threads, Continuations, Class Instance Variables) most of which are not apparent at first, but the interface presented is simple and clear. I believe the site could do the same. Hugh From zdennis at mktec.com Mon Feb 21 11:24:59 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Mon Feb 21 11:21:15 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> Michel Martens wrote: > I want to nominate myself as a designer (been doing that for the last > eight years). > > I will second this. I didn't know Michel was on the list, but I liked his simple/elegancy of the links he posted on the ruby ml: http://www.soveran.org (personal weblog) http://www.soveran.com (my evil capitalist face) https://visitorzone.ejkreed.com (my latest work for Cisco Systems Argentina) Zach From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Mon Feb 21 11:27:28 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Mon Feb 21 11:23:42 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1442f123f67eedfe35ea1efa05145abf@lypanov.net> portfolio? ;) On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Michel Martens wrote: > I want to nominate myself as a designer (been doing that for the last > eight years). > > Michel. > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss From agorilla at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 11:48:13 2005 From: agorilla at gmail.com (Bill Guindon) Date: Mon Feb 21 11:44:28 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67a2229205022108485e75a3f0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:50:22 +0000 (WET), Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > Devloper links Ruby Community similar to / based on: http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?RubyOnIRC http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?RubyOnTheNet -- Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla) From maki at rubycolor.org Mon Feb 21 12:08:24 2005 From: maki at rubycolor.org (Masayoshi Takahashi) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:02:21 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050222.020824.48405526.maki@rubycolor.org> Hi, "Curt Hibbs" wrote: > Let's use this thread to do some brainstorming on the ruby-lang-org site. > > - What should is be/do/look? FYI, there are some (summaries of) comments on current Ruby Homepage: * about contents * should release document based HTML * should add more documents for newbies * should delete old contents * should support windows user more * should add book guides * about system * should make menu more sophisticated * should use meaningful filename (not number) Regards, Masayoshi 'Maki' Takahashi E-mail: maki@rubycolor.org > - What should it not be/do/look? > > There are no rules. Post whatever comes to your mind. Feel free to debate > points or not to debate. > > The point is, let's get everyone's thoughts and concerns down in writing. > Then we can collect/categorize/prioritize/etc. > > Curt > > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From rampant at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 12:41:12 2005 From: rampant at gmail.com (Douglas Livingstone) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:37:28 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <20050222.020824.48405526.maki@rubycolor.org> References: <20050222.020824.48405526.maki@rubycolor.org> Message-ID: <5630944605022109412a765d2d@mail.gmail.com> > * should make menu more sophisticated Cut out some of it, say: About Ruby * What is Ruby? - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020101.html * Ruby's License - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/LICENSE.txt * Download - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020102.html * Documentation - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020103.html * Development - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020106.html * Links - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020308.html Community * Mailing list - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020104.html * User Groups - http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?RubyUserGroups * Ruby Around The World - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020307.html * More... - http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020105.html Projects * RAA: Ruby App. Archive - http://raa.ruby-lang.org/ * RubyForge - http://www.rubyforge.org/ * RubyGarden Wiki - http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby > * should use meaningful filename (not number) Meaningful URL, don't care what the files themselves are called or where the data is stored. Douglas From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 12:57:37 2005 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Mon Feb 21 12:53:52 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > - What should is be/do/look? Clean, simple, and usable; just like Ruby :-) * I think it is very important to have a symbol like the red diamond. I vote for a logo on the top left that contains such a symbol. * Are there any thoughts on integrating a search engine? I like what http://www.php.net does on the top left. * What about integrating rubyforge more, e.g. show 10 most active rubygems. Every month, one project could be featured (just like sourceforge does). > - What should it not be/do/look? Gentoo.org had a webpage redesign contest quite a while ago, here are the results: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/redesign-guidelines.xml The first entry (Aaron Shi) is the winner. IMHO such a design looks too much like a big coorporation. Ruby should instead be clean, simple, and have a community. -- Martin Ankerl | http://martinus.geekisp.com/ From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Mon Feb 21 13:29:14 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:25:29 2005 Subject: [OT] RedHanded CSS (was Re: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > I have had problems on the redhanded site, which I tried to raise > with _why ... I suggested adding 'margins: auto;" to the stylesheet. I've worked on changing this, but simply adding 'margins:auto' or the like doesn't fix the problem in all browsers. I'm sympathetic to your plight. What makes RedHanded difficult is the amount of code in our posts. I will fix this, just waiting for a bright idea. _why From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Mon Feb 21 13:32:54 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:29:09 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <20050222.020824.48405526.maki@rubycolor.org> References: <20050222.020824.48405526.maki@rubycolor.org> Message-ID: <421A2956.9090009@whytheluckystiff.net> Masayoshi Takahashi wrote: > * should release document based HTML > * should add more documents for newbies > * should delete old contents > * should support windows user more > * should add book guides > > Good stuff, Maki. Can you explain "should release document based HTML" a bit more? Rephrase or explain with links. _why From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Mon Feb 21 13:36:11 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:32:27 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> Message-ID: <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> Zach Dennis wrote: > I will second this. I didn't know Michel was on the list, but I liked > his simple/elegancy of the links he posted on the ruby ml: > > http://www.soveran.org (personal weblog) This is great and seems very compatible with the design we're looking for on Ruby-Lang. I like the art. It would be very cool, very different to have some line art incorporated into the header. It's worth trying on a mockup, I'd say. _why From zdennis at mktec.com Mon Feb 21 13:59:36 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:56:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421A2F98.3040903@mktec.com> Martin Ankerl wrote: > Gentoo.org had a webpage redesign contest quite a while ago This sounds like a good idea. Why not do some mockups that are not fully functionality and we can go from there with implementation of the design? Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Mon Feb 21 14:00:59 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Mon Feb 21 13:57:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421A2F98.3040903@mktec.com> References: <421A2F98.3040903@mktec.com> Message-ID: <421A2FEB.4080709@mktec.com> Zach Dennis wrote: > Martin Ankerl wrote: > >> Gentoo.org had a webpage redesign contest quite a while ago > > > This sounds like a good idea. Why not do some mockups that are not fully > functionality and we can go from there with implementation of the design? > mockups that are not functional at all is what i meant, just pretty images Zach From maki at rubycolor.org Mon Feb 21 14:14:18 2005 From: maki at rubycolor.org (Masayoshi Takahashi) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:08:13 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421A2956.9090009@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <20050222.020824.48405526.maki@rubycolor.org> <421A2956.9090009@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <20050222.041418.83628053.maki@rubycolor.org> why the lucky stiff wrote: > > * should release document based HTML > > * should add more documents for newbies > > * should delete old contents > > * should support windows user more > > * should add book guides > > > > > Good stuff, Maki. Can you explain "should release document based HTML" > a bit more? Rephrase or explain with links. Oops, sorry. it means "sould release (downloadable) Reference Manual in HTML format"(*) I translated it too literally :-/ (*) Japanese reference manual is maintained in Wiki now. http://www.ruby-lang.org/ja/man/ And there's no RDoc translated into Japanese. Regards, Masayoshi 'Maki' Takahashi E-mail: maki@rubycolor.org From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 14:13:24 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:09:36 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421A2F98.3040903@mktec.com> Message-ID: Zach Dennis wrote: > > Martin Ankerl wrote: > > > Gentoo.org had a webpage redesign contest quite a while ago > > This sounds like a good idea. Why not do some mockups that are not fully > functionality and we can go from there with implementation of the design? If anyone wants to post mockup images as part of this brainstorming exercise, please do. All input to the core design team would be welcome whether that input is in text or graphical form! Curt From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Mon Feb 21 14:26:43 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:23:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> On Feb 21, 2005, at 7:36 PM, why the lucky stiff wrote: > This is great and seems very compatible with the design we're looking > for on Ruby-Lang. I like the art. It would be very cool, very > different to have some line art incorporated into the header. It's > worth trying on a mockup, I'd say. we need a voting system so i don't have to +1 all of why's posts anyways, +1 :P Alex From blaumag at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 14:36:05 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:32:20 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> Message-ID: <6a6506460502211136551f3505@mail.gmail.com> As I promote myself as a programmer and most of my clients are references, the only portfolio I have is that on www.soveran.com. What I will do now is create a small sample and send it to the list as soon as I get it done. Michel. On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:26:43 +0100, Alexander Kellett wrote: > On Feb 21, 2005, at 7:36 PM, why the lucky stiff wrote: > > This is great and seems very compatible with the design we're looking > > for on Ruby-Lang. I like the art. It would be very cool, very > > different to have some line art incorporated into the header. It's > > worth trying on a mockup, I'd say. > > we need a voting system so i don't have to +1 all of why's posts > > anyways, > +1 > > :P > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From chneukirchen at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 15:00:29 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Mon Feb 21 14:57:08 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> (Alexander Kellett's message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:26:43 +0100") References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> Message-ID: Alexander Kellett writes: > On Feb 21, 2005, at 7:36 PM, why the lucky stiff wrote: >> This is great and seems very compatible with the design we're >> looking for on Ruby-Lang. I like the art. It would be very cool, >> very different to have some line art incorporated into the header. >> It's worth trying on a mockup, I'd say. > > we need a voting system so i don't have to +1 all of why's posts > > anyways, > +1 > > :P I like that one very much too, +1 > Alex -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From todd at slack.net Mon Feb 21 15:27:07 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Mon Feb 21 15:19:29 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Other usability stuff. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050221202707.GA22302@detroit.slack.net> * Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng [2005-02-21 10:21]: [snip] > Insights from these: people hate being made to feel stupid, so > design error processes so as not to cause that feeling. Get the An excellent reference on this topic: "Defensive Design for the Web", from 37signals (Basecamp crew) http://www.37signals.com/book/ Excellent book for those working on webapps (since developers often strongly influence [if not totally handle] presentation of errors and forms interactions). -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From todd at slack.net Mon Feb 21 15:42:53 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Mon Feb 21 15:35:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Getting Started [was Now, where were we?] In-Reply-To: References: <20050220.170835.45867350.maki@rubycolor.org> <20050221045704.GA76426@topi.cc> Message-ID: <20050221204253.GB22302@detroit.slack.net> * Christian Neukirchen [2005-02-21 08:55]: > >> * form a team to design the appearance > >> * form another team to choose the CMS > >> * create prototype on that CMS [lots of snip] > What are the requirements for the CMS? > > I think we need to focus on the (future) contents and the structure of > the site first before we can choose a CMS. Content and structure > also strongly influence the design, too. I think this is a key point - the initial 3-phases (now 2?) don't directly address IA, or more broadly "user experience [UX]". This is likely to be a bigger task than all the others if it's to be done well. If it's not done well the best-looking site in the world isn't much use - you don't need to look around the web very much to find many examples of beautiful, but totally unusable sites. Ideally, there should be thought on personas or "user types", task-based or info-based navigation, etc. I realize a balance of addressing these issues without becoming bogged down and never finishing is needed, but if they're not at least explicitly acknowledged they'll arise in messy form at some point. Examples of task-based might be: Learn: Intro to Ruby, Resources for learning, tutorials, etc. Participate: mailing lists, support groups, user groups, rubyforge, etc. Documentation: ruby-docs, proposals, etc. Download: ruby, projects, extensions, etc. That's an ad-hoc quick list, but the idea should be clear. So to sum up, Christian is raising a vital point - IA/UX is key to the whole project. It doesn't need to drown out everything else and grind the project to a halt, but it needs to be done as well as possible given the realities of time and resources... -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From curt at hibbs.com Mon Feb 21 15:59:36 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Mon Feb 21 15:55:54 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Getting Started [was Now, where were we?] In-Reply-To: <20050221204253.GB22302@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: Todd Grimason wrote: [snip] > Examples of task-based might be: > > Learn: Intro to Ruby, Resources for learning, tutorials, etc. > Participate: mailing lists, support groups, user groups, rubyforge, etc. > Documentation: ruby-docs, proposals, etc. > Download: ruby, projects, extensions, etc. > > That's an ad-hoc quick list, but the idea should be clear. > > So to sum up, Christian is raising a vital point - IA/UX is key to the > whole project. It doesn't need to drown out everything else and grind > the project to a halt, but it needs to be done as well as possible > given the realities of time and resources... Excellent points! Curt From florgro at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 17:24:10 2005 From: florgro at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Florian_Gro=DF?=) Date: Mon Feb 21 17:30:55 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Re: [OT] RedHanded CSS (was Re: Accessibility aspects of design.) In-Reply-To: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: why the lucky stiff wrote: > Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > >> I have had problems on the redhanded site, which I tried to raise >> with _why ... I suggested adding 'margins: auto;" to the stylesheet. > > I've worked on changing this, but simply adding 'margins:auto' or the > like doesn't fix the problem in all browsers. I'm sympathetic to your > plight. What makes RedHanded difficult is the amount of code in our > posts. I will fix this, just waiting for a bright idea. Is overflow: auto not an option? From nospam at lunacymaze.org Mon Feb 21 15:49:10 2005 From: nospam at lunacymaze.org (Ghislain MARY) Date: Mon Feb 21 17:44:48 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421A4946.8020409@lunacymaze.org> Hi, Curt Hibbs wrote: > Let's use this thread to do some brainstorming on the ruby-lang-org site. > > - What should is be/do/look? > - What should it not be/do/look? > I believe there are 4 points that we should think of: - Accessibility, as it has already been discussed a little in an other thread. - Internationalization, which is not the best quality of the current ruby-lang.org site. I think we should have a system which enables us to have teams for each languages to translate the content easily. It would be great to not only have an english and a japanese site, but also several other languages (according to users available for translation), for example french, italian, korean (on the main site and not somewhere else on the web) and so on... - Clarity. By that I mean ease of navigation and the ability to find what you search without having to spend hours for this. This includes a good visual design (colors, logos, all these sorts of things), and a good content design. It would be great to have significative urls instead of things like http://ruby-lang.org/en/20020101.html which means nothing to the user going to see the page. - Conformity to the XHTML and CSS standards. Here's my little contribution. Ghislain From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Mon Feb 21 18:54:59 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Mon Feb 21 18:51:27 2005 Subject: [OT] RedHanded CSS (was Re: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design.) In-Reply-To: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, why the lucky stiff wrote: > Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > >> I have had problems on the redhanded site, which I tried to raise >> with _why ... I suggested adding 'margins: auto;" to the stylesheet. > > I've worked on changing this, but simply adding 'margins:auto' or the like > doesn't fix the problem in all browsers. I'm sympathetic to your plight. Supporting all of them is tricky. > What makes RedHanded difficult is the amount of code in our posts. I will > fix this, just waiting for a bright idea. When I widen the browser that column doesn't drift to the left, I get lots of space on the left. Don't know if that helps... Thanks for looking into this. In other respects your setup works well, and maybe Hobix could play a role in the new ruby-lang.org (said he, dragging it back on topic, a bit!) > > _why Thank you, Hugh From blaumag at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 23:29:42 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Mon Feb 21 23:25:55 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> Message-ID: <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> I've put some screenshots of my work at http://www.soveran.com/portfolio From curt at hibbs.com Tue Feb 22 06:30:25 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Tue Feb 22 06:26:40 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Michel Martens wrote: > > I've put some screenshots of my work at http://www.soveran.com/portfolio Very nice -- simple, uncluttered designs! I like them. Curt From james.britt at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 09:56:44 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Tue Feb 22 09:52:58 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Checking in In-Reply-To: <421548C7.5060105@gmail.com> References: <421548C7.5060105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c600502220656621f5b49@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:45:43 -0700, James Britt wrote: > Just saying hello, and verifying that I'm on this list. > > I got some confirmation E-mail that said I could go to some site to > check.set my settings. SO I go visit, take a look, and leave. > > Next thing I know I;m getting a message that I'm unsubscribed. Turns out , I *was* unsubscribed, but not before being allowed to to post a message. Go figure. > > Frickin' Python tools .... Indeed. James From todd at slack.net Tue Feb 22 10:42:41 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Tue Feb 22 10:34:56 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050222154241.GA23416@detroit.slack.net> * Michel Martens [2005-02-21 23:33]: > I've put some screenshots of my work at http://www.soveran.com/portfolio semi-OT: what's an 'isologo'? Makes me think 'isotope'... which makes me think maybe this is a literal translation of 'logotype'? Nice work by the way... -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From blaumag at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 11:01:21 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Tue Feb 22 10:57:33 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <20050222154241.GA23416@detroit.slack.net> References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> <20050222154241.GA23416@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <6a65064605022208016ea4b13e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:42:41 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > * Michel Martens [2005-02-21 23:33]: > > I've put some screenshots of my work at http://www.soveran.com/portfolio > > semi-OT: what's an 'isologo'? Makes me think 'isotope'... which makes > me think maybe this is a literal translation of 'logotype'? isotype = shape logotype = word isologotype = shapes and words isologo = syntactic sugar (!) for isologotype After a little research, I've found that in English the isotype is usually called "emblem", and the logotype with a not so distorted typeface is called 'brand name'. Even though we have words for 'emblem' (emblema) and for 'brand name' (marca), in Spanish the Greek words described above remain almost untouched, and in a conversation between designers you can hear them all the time. Most people (not including designers) just refer to them all with the generic 'logo' (I think just like in English). > Nice work by the way... Thank you very much! Michel From chneukirchen at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 12:08:11 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Tue Feb 22 12:04:08 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Choose the Core Team In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> (Michel Martens's message of "Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:29:42 -0300") References: <6a275c97a3772825b0a21cc79ad6e0b9@lypanov.net> <6a6506460502210748352f77dd@mail.gmail.com> <421A0B5B.5080502@mktec.com> <421A2A1B.6070700@whytheluckystiff.net> <851b91054914717e3716472d44feb46e@lypanov.net> <6a65064605022120292077cbe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Michel Martens writes: > I've put some screenshots of my work at http://www.soveran.com/portfolio I like this style of design very much, and I think you should be in the design team. -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Tue Feb 22 14:35:44 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Tue Feb 22 14:31:34 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421B8990.7090603@infofiend.com> Wow, you guys got off to a roaring start without me. That's great! I think accessibility should be a prime concern, and I'm really happy that the person raising the issue is someone who would actually use the feature(s). I remember a long discussion in ruby-talk at one point about using "captcha"-things to prevent wiki spam. One person mentioned he/she had heard that blind people needed something else, and then a whole bunch of people tried to design something for the theoretical "blind user", but no blind users were ever asked for their opinions. Hugh, what are some examples of sites that are well designed for someone who likes reading with large font sizes? Do you like sites that have a "simple" or "light" option, which is simply H1-H5 tags, HRs and paragraphs, or do you still want the tables/columns etc. but designed so that they resize properly when the font size is changed? In your view, can the presentation issue be solved by CSS, or should there be a completely different rendering of the site for people with low vision? I think this is related to the issue of multiple languages. In one case, you have the same content rendered in two very different ways. In the other case, you have different content rendered into very similar looking templates. Because of this, I think it makes sense to try to address both issues at once. Ben From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Tue Feb 22 16:44:51 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Tue Feb 22 16:40:40 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> Curt Hibbs wrote: > - What should [it] be/do/look? * Appeal to newcomers, and point them at the info they need/want quickly * Promote hot projects (Ruby on Rails should promote Ruby, and Ruby should promote RoR too) * Contain an easy-to-find site map and search engine * Have a few things I don't think exist yet: * Ruby for (Perl|Python|PHP|C++) programmers * A taste of Ruby -- a 10-minute glimpse at the language that gives a hint of the syntax, of what makes Ruby unique, etc * Provide a way for people to find out what's new with Ruby without having to join the mailing list * Have information in many presentations / languages so it is accessible to everybody, even French-speaking PDA-users with limited vision (not to pick on mes amis francais) Ok, and here's a hard one: * Give a reason for *us* to keep using the site I don't know about you folks, but I really have no reason to use the Ruby site. * I get Ruby from my distro * I know to go to RAA or rubyforge for libs/apps * I know to go to ruby-doc.org or rubycentral.com for API docs, or to remember how to use something * I have a whole set of other bookmarks for ruby-related things, few of which point to ruby-lang.org, and few of which are linked to from ruby-lang.org I think with a bit of effort we can consolidate a lot of this information on the ruby-lang.org site. The benefit of this is that even if you're just going there for the quick reference, you might see an announcement about Instiki 3.0 and decide to check it out. > - What should it not be/do/look? * Limited number of links / text on the front page, so you're not overwhelmed with options * Not overly corporate-looking * No ads, if at all possible * No lingering old news from months ago (it makes Ruby seem stagnant) * Don't drive content away (i.e. if possible, get Ruby Weekly News integrated into the site maybe through an RSS feed or something, instead of sending people to the RWN page, that way once someone has glanced at the news they can proceed with downloading Ruby rather than having to hit "back" a few times first) From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Tue Feb 22 17:31:32 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Tue Feb 22 17:27:43 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> On Feb 21, 2005, at 6:57 PM, Martin Ankerl wrote: > Gentoo.org had a webpage redesign contest quite a while ago, here are > the results: > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/redesign-guidelines.xml > The first entry (Aaron Shi) is the winner. IMHO such a design looks > too much like a big coorporation. Ruby should instead be clean, > simple, and have a community. i like http://www.gentoo.org/images/wwwcontest/contest4_front.png actually :) the large "weekly news", "ready for", "preparing to install", "whats.." are a nice touch :) Alex From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Tue Feb 22 17:41:25 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Tue Feb 22 17:37:34 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> References: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <8781da00f170292684ba460465c7cc9e@lypanov.net> On Feb 22, 2005, at 10:44 PM, Ben Giddings wrote: > Ok, and here's a hard one: > * Give a reason for *us* to keep using the site +5 this also means we'll have a reason to keep it maintained integrate a good docs download / search, have interesting links to e.g _why's site, latest releases of major components, etc, and i *know* i would visit ruby-lang.org more frequently :) Alex From todd at slack.net Tue Feb 22 17:53:34 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Tue Feb 22 17:45:45 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> Message-ID: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> * Alexander Kellett [2005-02-22 17:35]: > > i like > http://www.gentoo.org/images/wwwcontest/contest4_front.png > actually :) > Hmm... http://www.apple.com (valid points though!) -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From blaumag at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 18:11:50 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:08:02 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> I know it will look better than how it sounds, but in my opinion the final redesign should feel and look more like a weblog than like a corporate website. The community now is not on ruby-lang, but on this list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. I guess LoudThinking gets more hits than the Ruby on Rails weblog, mainly because the news are on the main page and that's what people like us always look for. Of course, on the same level of importance are "Brief description and Intro", "Language reference" and "Ruby download". I've written this with more details at http://vit.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?RLOrgProjectGoals. On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:53:34 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > * Alexander Kellett [2005-02-22 17:35]: > > > > i like > > http://www.gentoo.org/images/wwwcontest/contest4_front.png > > actually :) > > > > Hmm... http://www.apple.com From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Tue Feb 22 18:24:59 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:21:40 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: <421B8990.7090603@infofiend.com> References: <421B8990.7090603@infofiend.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Ben Giddings wrote: > Wow, you guys got off to a roaring start without me. That's great! > > I think accessibility should be a prime concern, and I'm really happy that Thank you. > the person raising the issue is someone who would actually use the > feature(s). I remember a long discussion in ruby-talk at one point about > using "captcha"-things to prevent wiki spam. One person mentioned he/she had > heard that blind people needed something else, and then a whole bunch of > people tried to design something for the theoretical "blind user", but no > blind users were ever asked for their opinions. People don't always identify themselves, and they can be hard to find. > > Hugh, what are some examples of sites that are well designed for someone who > likes reading with large font sizes? Do you like sites that have a "simple" I might have to get back to you on that. Basically, if you design a site without regard to font size, it will usually work. When you make widths and spacing explicit, it gets difficult. One of the things about multiple columns is getting screen readers to do the right thing. I've not played with any recently, but this was certainly a problem in the past, and people reading a 40 char braille display can have fun with that sort of thing, too. Especially if the rendering was done by a 'web by email' program which was written to show layout in plain ASCII. There are more ways to browse the web than one first thinks. > or "light" option, which is simply H1-H5 tags, HRs and paragraphs, or do you HTML 2 :-) Most of my pages are like that actually, though in HTML4. But I'm not trying to attract people, except in so far as I try to provide useful info. > still want the tables/columns etc. but designed so that they resize properly > when the font size is changed? In your view, can the presentation issue be Yes, things should just work. But there are so many browsers out there -- let's see: lynx, links, w3m, netrik , the old linemode browser, netscape 4 (I've not managed to build Mozilla Firefox on Solaris yet), plume, MMM [I think], and that's just what come to mind without searching. Some of these are OLD! > solved by CSS, or should there be a completely different rendering of the > site for people with low vision? It may be necessary to do both to cover everyone, but CSS should be the way to go. If you are familiar with "A list Apart" they have CSS "black belts" who can do wonderful things in a few lines. For heaven's sake generate both renderings automatically though, so they don't get out of synch. But with the Pragmatic Programmers' contributions to our lives, you knew that :-) > > I think this is related to the issue of multiple languages. In one case, you > have the same content rendered in two very different ways. In the other > case, you have different content rendered into very similar looking > templates. Because of this, I think it makes sense to try to address both > issues at once. Yes, I see your point, though the differing text directions can make this fun, I imagine. Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese... I'm still trying to understand how one is meant to use Unicode in Vim on Windows. > > Ben Hugh From todd at slack.net Tue Feb 22 18:38:25 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:30:36 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> * Michel Martens [2005-02-22 18:16]: > I know it will look better than how it sounds, but in my opinion the > final redesign should feel and look more like a weblog than like a > corporate website. The community now is not on ruby-lang, but on this It seems like the options (besides 'boilerplate' like download, docs, etc.) are vaguely these three: 1) aggregator (of the distributed community, i.e. (mostly)ruby blogs, forge, etc.) 2) actively edited pointers to articles, ruby mentions, new apps built with ruby, etc., in addition to ruby releases and conferences, etc. 3) less often updates for "bigger" news, ie. conferences, new ruby releases and/or patches, etc. (like php.net) === First option is likely the least work on a daily or near-daily basis, but is chaotic and a bit too trusting methinks. You could end up with "I'm a new dad!" or something as the first entry (someone mis-categorizes something on their blog). Second obviously requires a fair bit of ongoing work - though if it was split up like a group blog, ie. slashdot, that would lower workload and (hopefully) keep it fresh. But this approach is high-maintenance - if postings start often then lag it looks dead. Third is probably in-between the other two for workload, and IMHO kind of what people would expect to see. I've never really gone back to perl or java sites in the past for anything but docs and/or downloads. I don't know that the 'official site' is really a place for chatty community stuff - pointers to it definitely - but maybe not a host for it. I think this is also the most realistic regarding the balance of resources, and making sure it doesn't look like an abandoned site (automated feeds of news and code will help too). Sorry if I've crushed any dreams. Well it's not my decision so I can influence the crushing of dreams but not actually do it. But that's my opinion for what it's worth (~3 cents) -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Tue Feb 22 18:50:54 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Tue Feb 22 18:41:39 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> References: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <20050222235054.GA92223@topi.cc> Ben Giddings (bg-rubytalk@infofiend.com) wrote: > > Ok, and here's a hard one: > * Give a reason for *us* to keep using the site > > I don't know about you folks, but I really have no reason to use the > Ruby site. > * I get Ruby from my distro > * I know to go to RAA or rubyforge for libs/apps > * I know to go to ruby-doc.org or rubycentral.com for API docs, or to > remember how to use something > * I have a whole set of other bookmarks for ruby-related things, few of > which point to ruby-lang.org, and few of which are linked to from > ruby-lang.org > > I think with a bit of effort we can consolidate a lot of this > information on the ruby-lang.org site. The benefit of this is that even > if you're just going there for the quick reference, you might see an > announcement about Instiki 3.0 and decide to check it out. > Yeah, totally. This and what Michel said about where the discussion is happening. This is the reason I generally don't announce software releases on RedHanded. Or anything you see on RWN. RedHanded normally centers around peculiarities, hacks, obscure references to rubyist lexicon, all that. I always envisioned ruby-lang.org covering all the mainstream stuff, that way RdHd doesn't go extinct. I think it would be cool if we had editors on the main site who weren't above inciting a hair of opinion and discussion. NOT concerning Ruby vs. Blank. AND NOT concerning techniques. More like: "Here's a new RCR of interest -- what do you think?" or "It's been a year or so since any extensions have been added to Ruby stdlib -- take any away or add any??" That sort of thing. _why From james.britt at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 19:15:07 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Tue Feb 22 19:10:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> Michel Martens wrote: > I know it will look better than how it sounds, but in my opinion the > final redesign should feel and look more like a weblog than like a > corporate website. The look should be driven by the purpose; I don't see a real value in having the Ruby "home page" be or look like a blog. If there is a news item, I expect more people would read that section via an RSS feed than by actually visiting the site. > The community now is not on ruby-lang, but on this > list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. What makes you think this? James From james.britt at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 19:32:57 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Tue Feb 22 19:28:17 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> References: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <421BCF39.1050908@gmail.com> > Curt Hibbs wrote: > >> - What should [it] be/do/look? > > * Make it easy to get and use Ruby * Be easy to maintain * Have room for growth * Focus on serving a well-defined target audience, not trying to be all things to all users * Serve more as a portal, referring users to more specialized resources, than be the Ruby uber-host * Look like what it is; rather than craft a look, first decide what the site's reason for being is, and let the look come out of that. James From blaumag at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 19:49:03 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Tue Feb 22 19:45:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a65064605022216492caf6e26@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:15:07 -0700, James Britt wrote: > The look should be driven by the purpose; I don't see a real value in > having the Ruby "home page" be or look like a blog. If there is a news > item, I expect more people would read that section via an RSS feed than > by actually visiting the site. The look should be driven by the purpose, I agree. My premise was "Why would I go to ruby-lang?", and I sketched some ideas on the wiki (http://vit.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?RLOrgProjectGoals). Of course you can have different expectations based on your experience. About RSS: I'm subscribed to many feeds, including those from RedHanded, Loud Thinking, Too-Biased and Francis Hwangs site. In every case, I first discovered interesting content on their respective websites. The website precedes the syndication. I visit them often, because I also like to see the real thing. Again, this is my opinion, not an axiom. > > > The community now is not on ruby-lang, but on this > > list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. > > What makes you think this? Among other things, this conversation. But don't get me wrong: I don't thing it would be a good idea to move everything there. Instead, my approach would be the opposite: paraphrasing the "Less Software" idea, I'm after "Less Information". Again, more on this is available at the wiki. Michel. From dblack at wobblini.net Tue Feb 22 20:51:57 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Tue Feb 22 20:48:10 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421BCF39.1050908@gmail.com> References: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> <421BCF39.1050908@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi -- On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, James Britt wrote: > >> Curt Hibbs wrote: >> >>> - What should [it] be/do/look? >> >> > > * Make it easy to get and use Ruby > > * Be easy to maintain > > * Have room for growth > > * Focus on serving a well-defined target audience, > not trying to be all things to all users > > * Serve more as a portal, referring users to more > specialized resources, than be the Ruby uber-host > > * Look like what it is; rather than craft a look, > first decide what the site's reason for being is, > and let the look come out of that. I agree strongly with all these points. David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From martindemello at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 21:38:33 2005 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Tue Feb 22 21:34:50 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:38:25 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > > 3) less often updates for "bigger" news, ie. conferences, new ruby > releases and/or patches, etc. (like php.net) > > Third is probably in-between the other two for workload, and IMHO kind > of what people would expect to see. I've never really gone back to > perl or java sites in the past for anything but docs and/or > downloads. I don't know that the 'official site' is really a place for > chatty community stuff - pointers to it definitely - but maybe not a > host for it. I'd second this - I think the primary purposes of ruby-lang should be (i) A place for newcomers to get a good introduction to the language and (ii) The official site for ruby resources (sources, platform binaries, documentation, tutorials, advocacy material, faqs, 'real world ruby' stories, links to application repositories and the wiki, etc) martin From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Tue Feb 22 22:08:11 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Tue Feb 22 22:04:57 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <20050222235054.GA92223@topi.cc> References: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> <20050222235054.GA92223@topi.cc> Message-ID: <18c277632eb572fd1b35da0afd3251d5@infofiend.com> On Feb 22, 2005, at 18:50, why the lucky stiff wrote: > I think it would be cool if we had editors on the main site who weren't > above inciting a hair of opinion and discussion. NOT concerning Ruby > vs. Blank. AND NOT concerning techniques. > > More like: "Here's a new RCR of interest -- what do you think?" or > "It's > been a year or so since any extensions have been added to Ruby stdlib > -- > take any away or add any??" > > That sort of thing. I think that would be great, and we could have a blog-like area, or at least a place where there are things to discuss -- on the other hand, I strongly think that the front page shouldn't be that blog. It should maybe have some (2 or 3) announcements or other newsy type things, but it should really be geared towards people who aren't yet part of the Ruby community. Why? If you're not part of the Ruby community, but have heard about this "Ruby" thing, you will probably go to ruby.org (and be sad) then you'll ask Google where to find Ruby and it will drop you at http://www.ruby-lang.org/ From there, you can discover what Ruby is. If you're a seasoned programmer, you can find the "Ruby for ___ programmers" link. If you're new to programming, you can find the "Gentle Intro to Ruby" link. Etc. On the other hand, if you're part of the Ruby community, you should have no trouble remembering that the Ruby weblog / announcements / hot projects page is actually at http://www.ruby-lang.org/news/ or http://news.ruby-lang.org/ or even http://news.ruby-lang.org/current-events/. Or you might remember that to get there you go to the main page, click on "What Is Ruby" then click on "Community". If you're just getting into Ruby, you may not know these URLs, but you'll probably be willing to spend a couple of minutes poking around the site until you find the "current events" or "news" section, and then you'll bookmark it. Either way, I don't think we should design the "splash page" (for lack of a better term) for ourselves. We should design it for people who end up there because they don't know where else to go. The added benefit of this approach is that if we all get busy, or something happens, and the current-events section doesn't get updated for a few months, the "splash page" won't look like an abandoned weblog. Ben From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 00:02:37 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Tue Feb 22 23:57:59 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022216492caf6e26@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> <6a65064605022216492caf6e26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421C0E6D.6030007@gmail.com> Michel Martens wrote: > > >>>The community now is not on ruby-lang, but on this >>>list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. >> >>What makes you think this? > > > Among other things, this conversation. Interesting. I get the feeling that vit is driven by a small but vocal group who were motivated, for various reasons, so band together and do something about ruby-lang.org. But I'm far from convinced that it represents anything approaching a community consensus. I don't have hard numbers, but the number of people reading ruby-talk has grown quite a bit (based on my recollection of some ruby-talk threads), and many, many people prefer (or only have time) to lurk. Of course, community consensus isn't needed to change ruby-lang.org, only the consent of those who run it. But I would hope that every reasonable effort is made to discover the true users of the site and find out what they want and expect. I know that this can be hard. I've made numerous solicitations for feedback on ruby-doc.org, but have not gotten anywhere near the response I would have preferred. However, based on what responses I have got, the opinion of the site is different from how some have recently characterized it. So some care should be taken that this group doesn't become too insulated and self-selecting. It is tempting to look at the particular communities one happens to inhabit and believe that this is where the action is. *A* community is now on this list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. But not *the* community. And the people frequenting RedHanded, LoudThinking, and so on, really don't need a ruby-lang redesign; they already know their way around. It's all those people you never hear from who are the real audience. James From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Wed Feb 23 07:31:24 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Wed Feb 23 07:27:43 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design. In-Reply-To: <421B8990.7090603@infofiend.com> References: <421B8990.7090603@infofiend.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Ben Giddings wrote: > Hugh, what are some examples of sites that are well designed for someone who > likes reading with large font sizes? Do you like sites that have a "simple" A couple of examples, 'close to home' http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ppbook/extracts/rule_list.html a striking example of more complicated layout that just works, though the whole of the site is accessible. I can't remember anything that stood out as not being accessible, anyway http://poignantguide.net/ruby/index.html works very well with large print. Only slight difficuly is the font choice for some parts -- e.g. on that page "Read This Paragraph" and the paragraph itself has rather small "leading" (vertical gaps between the lines) compared to what I'd expect, which makes it a bit more difficult to pick the word/letter shapes out. That may be more of a problem for (some kinds of) dyslexics, if I understand what dyslexics have told me. But generally the text flowing works very well even into the story, even with the sidebars. Tested with letters as tall as the width of my thumb (not wishing to scratch the screen with a proper measuring instrument!) bigger than I usually use. HTH Hugh From chneukirchen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 07:14:57 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Wed Feb 23 07:58:13 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> (Ben Giddings's message of "Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:44:51 -0500") References: <421BA7D3.4060307@infofiend.com> Message-ID: Ben Giddings writes: > Curt Hibbs wrote: >> - What should [it] be/do/look? > > * Appeal to newcomers, and point them at the info they need/want quickly - Downloads - Pickaxe - Online RDoc - Links to various mailing lists, IRC channels, related websites/blogs - Upcoming Conferences? > * Promote hot projects (Ruby on Rails should promote Ruby, and Ruby > should promote RoR too) > * Contain an easy-to-find site map and search engine > * Have a few things I don't think exist yet: > * Ruby for (Perl|Python|PHP|C++) programmers Don't forget our java friends. :-) > * A taste of Ruby -- a 10-minute glimpse at the language that gives > a hint of the syntax, of what makes Ruby unique, etc > * Provide a way for people to find out what's new with Ruby without > having to join the mailing list RSS/Atom feeds are a must if you want people to come back. RWN should possibly get it's own ML and feeds. > * Have information in many presentations / languages so it is > accessible to everybody, even French-speaking PDA-users with limited > vision (not to pick on mes amis francais) Multilanguage is essential for better acceptance. > Ok, and here's a hard one: > * Give a reason for *us* to keep using the site > > I don't know about you folks, but I really have no reason to use the > Ruby site. > * I get Ruby from my distro > * I know to go to RAA or rubyforge for libs/apps > * I know to go to ruby-doc.org or rubycentral.com for API docs, or to > remember how to use something > * I have a whole set of other bookmarks for ruby-related things, few > of which point to ruby-lang.org, and few of which are linked to from > ruby-lang.org I have to admit it's quite the same here... most of the time I only refer newcomers to ruby-lang.org. I think ruby-lang.org should primarily made for newcomers to have them everything needed at a glance, but still stay useful to advanced users. (I dunno about other sites, but how often to hard-core pythonists or perlers go to their language site?) > I think with a bit of effort we can consolidate a lot of this > information on the ruby-lang.org site. The benefit of this is that > even if you're just going there for the quick reference, you might see > an announcement about Instiki 3.0 and decide to check it out. Maybe a planet.ruby-lang.org would be a nice thing to have for community building/binding, too. >> - What should it not be/do/look? > > * Limited number of links / text on the front page, so you're not > overwhelmed with options > * Not overly corporate-looking > * No ads, if at all possible > * No lingering old news from months ago (it makes Ruby seem stagnant) But provide archives, of course. > * Don't drive content away (i.e. if possible, get Ruby Weekly News > integrated into the site maybe through an RSS feed or something, > instead of sending people to the RWN page, that way once someone has > glanced at the news they can proceed with downloading Ruby rather > than having to hit "back" a few times first) See above about feeds. -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From blaumag at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 08:12:07 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Wed Feb 23 08:08:19 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421C0E6D.6030007@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> <6a65064605022216492caf6e26@mail.gmail.com> <421C0E6D.6030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a65064605022305122c19d253@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:02:37 -0700, James Britt wrote: > *A* community is now on this list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. > But not *the* community. And the people frequenting RedHanded, > LoudThinking, and so on, really don't need a ruby-lang redesign; they > already know their way around. It's all those people you never hear > from who are the real audience. James, sorry to put it this way, but If you read what I wrote on the wiki, you already know that for the use case of "all those people you never hear from" I thought of me going to lua.org or haskell.org. I now what I look for when I want to learn a new language, so it was easy to write it down. You can do the same, write about why would you go to ruby-lang. The ruby-lang design looks to me a lot like a weblog (a bloated one). I first got there about a year ago, and I had not problems learning Ruby. It doesn't look like a website of a dead language even though there are roughly two posts each month. My proposal is not about moving ruby-lang to Blogger: I think of how would I like it to be and in my mind I see an accesible reference, a brief introduction, a download ruby link and news provided by people with great writing skills like matz, _why, etc. The newcomer will read the introduction, jump into the documentation if he liked what it saw, and maybe download Ruby. I would go there to check an updated version of the "Ruby Class and Library Reference" or to read matz or _why's thoughts. From dblack at wobblini.net Wed Feb 23 08:25:30 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Wed Feb 23 08:21:40 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: Hi -- On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Martin DeMello wrote: > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:38:25 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: >> >> 3) less often updates for "bigger" news, ie. conferences, new ruby >> releases and/or patches, etc. (like php.net) >> >> Third is probably in-between the other two for workload, and IMHO kind >> of what people would expect to see. I've never really gone back to >> perl or java sites in the past for anything but docs and/or >> downloads. I don't know that the 'official site' is really a place for >> chatty community stuff - pointers to it definitely - but maybe not a >> host for it. > > I'd second this - I think the primary purposes of ruby-lang should be > (i) A place for newcomers to get a good introduction to the language > and (ii) The official site for ruby resources (sources, platform > binaries, documentation, tutorials, advocacy material, faqs, 'real > world ruby' stories, links to application repositories and the wiki, > etc) I would be cautious about the centralization (physically) of resources, as well as about the notion of "official" resources. Physical centralization doesn't make sense for many things -- especially advocacy material, which should be as far-flung as possible, but also documentation and tutorials. (I can't think of any reason to go to the trouble of moving the online Pickaxe, Why's Poignant Guide, Chris Pine's "Programming through Ruby" site, etc., to a single server; it would just be busy-work). Similarly, things that are not on the ruby-lang.org server must not be cast in the role of second-rate or unimportant. This is where the notion of "official" materials can be counter-productive. The official site should point with pride and joy to the great things that have been done, and continue to be done, around the net on behalf of Ruby. The community has already outgrown -- or simply not bothered with -- a strict official/non-official division, particularly along server lines. In short, I'd describe it not as "the official site for Ruby resources", but as "the Ruby homepage, which includes some resources" -- leaving it open-ended. David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 09:04:07 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Wed Feb 23 08:59:27 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022305122c19d253@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> <6a65064605022216492caf6e26@mail.gmail.com> <421C0E6D.6030007@gmail.com> <6a65064605022305122c19d253@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421C8D57.3080809@gmail.com> Michel Martens wrote: > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:02:37 -0700, James Britt wrote: > >>*A* community is now on this list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. >>But not *the* community. And the people frequenting RedHanded, >>LoudThinking, and so on, really don't need a ruby-lang redesign; they >>already know their way around. It's all those people you never hear >>from who are the real audience. > > > James, sorry to put it this way, but If you read what I wrote on the > wiki, you already know that for the use case of "all those people you > never hear from" I thought of me going to lua.org or haskell.org. I > now what I look for when I want to learn a new language, so it was > easy to write it down. You can do the same, write about why would you > go to ruby-lang. I read that page. That's not quite what I was referring to. Yes, the newcomer is probably the critical target, but there are others, too, the many people who are not among the dozen or so posting on RedHanded or LoudThinking. When I read a post on this lists that assert, for example, "The idea of giving an official look, ruby-lang.org subdomains, or a common header to community sites has been brought up a lot.", I have to wonder. A lot? Hardly. Perhaps within a certain sub-group of Rubyists, but it's hardly been a frequent topic in the main. My concern is that there may be a narrow perspective overly influenced by those who just happen to be more vocal. The question "Why would you go to ruby-lang?" may have things backwards. It may be better to determine what resources the full Ruby community needs, and figure out where they should be. Then we'll have a better idea of what belongs on ruby-lang.org. Offhand, I would sort of expect to be able to go to ruby-lang.org and quickly find out where to download the latest version. But I would not think or want to go there to read quirky blog entries, even from matz. James From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 09:07:06 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Wed Feb 23 09:02:24 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> David A. Black wrote: > > > I would be cautious about the centralization (physically) of > resources, as well as about the notion of "official" resources. > Physical centralization doesn't make sense for many things -- > especially advocacy material, which should be as far-flung as > possible, but also documentation and tutorials. (I can't think of any > reason to go to the trouble of moving the online Pickaxe, Why's > Poignant Guide, Chris Pine's "Programming through Ruby" site, etc., to > a single server; it would just be busy-work). > > Similarly, things that are not on the ruby-lang.org server must not be > cast in the role of second-rate or unimportant. This is where the > notion of "official" materials can be counter-productive. The > official site should point with pride and joy to the great things that > have been done, and continue to be done, around the net on behalf of > Ruby. The community has already outgrown -- or simply not bothered > with -- a strict official/non-official division, particularly along > server lines. > > In short, I'd describe it not as "the official site for Ruby > resources", but as "the Ruby homepage, which includes some resources" > -- leaving it open-ended. Well put. James From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Wed Feb 23 10:02:18 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Wed Feb 23 09:58:47 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> On Feb 23, 2005, at 08:25, David A. Black wrote: > I would be cautious about the centralization (physically) of > resources, as well as about the notion of "official" resources. > Physical centralization doesn't make sense for many things -- > especially advocacy material, which should be as far-flung as > possible, but also documentation and tutorials. (I can't think of any > reason to go to the trouble of moving the online Pickaxe, Why's > Poignant Guide, Chris Pine's "Programming through Ruby" site, etc., to > a single server; it would just be busy-work). > > Similarly, things that are not on the ruby-lang.org server must not be > cast in the role of second-rate or unimportant. This is where the > notion of "official" materials can be counter-productive. The > official site should point with pride and joy to the great things that > have been done, and continue to be done, around the net on behalf of > Ruby. The community has already outgrown -- or simply not bothered > with -- a strict official/non-official division, particularly along > server lines. > > In short, I'd describe it not as "the official site for Ruby > resources", but as "the Ruby homepage, which includes some resources" > -- leaving it open-ended. Ok, but would you agree that there are certain resources that really do belong on the Ruby homepage? I really think that certain things *need* to be there, like the Ruby API and standard library docs. They're one of the first things a newcomer to the language would want to see, and if they're not on the Ruby homepage and up-to-date, a newcomer might not believe they're official. Sure, not everything Ruby-related needs to go on ruby-lang.org, but I think there should be more there than there is now. There should be at least enough to convince people that Ruby should be taken seriously. Newcomers shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. Ben From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Wed Feb 23 10:07:30 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Wed Feb 23 10:06:30 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> Message-ID: What should it contain?
    <% ruby_sites.sort_by{|x| x.date}.reverse.each{|site| %>
  • <%= site.title %> [<% site.date %>]
    • <% } %>
i.e a list of sites sorted by last update, most recent first. ISTR ruby-lang used to have a page like this. Hugh From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 10:32:17 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Wed Feb 23 10:35:18 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c600502230732cc908d5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:07:30 +0000 (WET), Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > > What should it contain? > >
    <% ruby_sites.sort_by{|x| x.date}.reverse.each{|site| %> >
  • <%= site.title %> [<% > site.date %>]
    • > <% } %>
> > i.e a list of sites sorted by last update, most recent first. > ISTR ruby-lang used to have a page like this. > Hugh Ah, yes, the Ruby Hot Links page or something like that. I think it relied on a given page having a certain header comment with the last update time. And, of course, the person who maintained the list had t know about your site to begin with. I recall having assorted problems getting rubyxml.com to correctly show up on the list whenever I added new content. After a while I just forgot about it. It seemed a good example of the problems with human-maintained content. Ideally, some magic Ruby app should Google for sites, intelligently figure out which ones are specifically focused on Ruby (as opposed to periodically mentioning), and list them by some infallible last-update metric. Ruby Quiz fodder, perhaps. James From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 10:52:21 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Wed Feb 23 10:48:31 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c6005022307523913205f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:02:18 -0500, Ben Giddings wrote: > ... > Ok, but would you agree that there are certain resources that really do > belong on the Ruby homepage? I really think that certain things *need* > to be there, like the Ruby API and standard library docs. They're one > of the first things a newcomer to the language would want to see, and > if they're not on the Ruby homepage and up-to-date, a newcomer might > not believe they're official. I'm far from sure about the "not believe they're official" claim. It gets a lot of play from some people, but my gut feeling is that it is an imagined issue, with no empirical substantiation. But, either way, I agree that the core docs should be on the site. The main API is obviously easy to generate. The standard lib package as hosted on ruby-doc.org is built using a special tool and uploaded by Gavin Sinclair to ruby-doc.org. There's no reason (off the top of my head) it couldn't also be ftp'ed or mailed to someone at ruby-lang at the same time. Of course, ruby-lang could simply linked to the appropriate pages on ruby-doc.org, too. I'm a big fan of intuitive URLs, and would like it if one could type http://www.ruby-lang.org/docs or http://www.ruby-lang.org/api or http://www.ruby-lang.org/manual and go to the appropriate page. Even if that page just linked or redirected to someplace else. It's not that all of that should be hosted on ruby-lang, but I can imagine people expecting to find certain links or pages. Reasonable behavior by the user should be met by reasonable behavior from the site. But there's the matter of defining "reasonable." > > Sure, not everything Ruby-related needs to go on ruby-lang.org, but I > think there should be more there than there is now. There should be at > least enough to convince people that Ruby should be taken seriously. > Newcomers shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. On a related but different topic, Ruby could use an up-to-date, complete, free user manual. The 1st version of Programming Ruby (AKA The Pickaxe) is excellent, but not current. Plus there are numerous things in the standard lib that are not even mentioned. Yes, newcomers would do well to go buy the current version of Programming Ruby, but they shouldn't have to. In an ideal world, every copy of Ruby would come with a complete manual. Just food for thought. James From dblack at wobblini.net Wed Feb 23 14:40:14 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Wed Feb 23 14:36:25 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> Message-ID: Hi -- On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Ben Giddings wrote: > On Feb 23, 2005, at 08:25, David A. Black wrote: >> I would be cautious about the centralization (physically) of >> resources, as well as about the notion of "official" resources. >> Physical centralization doesn't make sense for many things -- >> especially advocacy material, which should be as far-flung as >> possible, but also documentation and tutorials. (I can't think of any >> reason to go to the trouble of moving the online Pickaxe, Why's >> Poignant Guide, Chris Pine's "Programming through Ruby" site, etc., to >> a single server; it would just be busy-work). >> >> Similarly, things that are not on the ruby-lang.org server must not be >> cast in the role of second-rate or unimportant. This is where the >> notion of "official" materials can be counter-productive. The >> official site should point with pride and joy to the great things that >> have been done, and continue to be done, around the net on behalf of >> Ruby. The community has already outgrown -- or simply not bothered >> with -- a strict official/non-official division, particularly along >> server lines. >> >> In short, I'd describe it not as "the official site for Ruby >> resources", but as "the Ruby homepage, which includes some resources" >> -- leaving it open-ended. > > Ok, but would you agree that there are certain resources that really do > belong on the Ruby homepage? Yes -- principally links to projects and resources that are hosted elsewhere, plus whatever's hosted there. I don't think the line between those two categories is important. > I really think that certain things *need* to be > there, like the Ruby API and standard library docs. They're one of the first > things a newcomer to the language would want to see, and if they're not on > the Ruby homepage and up-to-date, a newcomer might not believe they're > official. > > Sure, not everything Ruby-related needs to go on ruby-lang.org, but I think > there should be more there than there is now. There should be at least > enough to convince people that Ruby should be taken seriously. Newcomers > shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. If people think that having networked, distributed resources relating to its use and dissemination means that a programming language isn't serious, then they need to take remedial lessons in Web architecture, not start studying Ruby :-) But I really cannot imagine anyone saying, "This link goes to pragmaticprogrammer.com; I guess Ruby is a toy." If there are such people, I certainly wouldn't want to see the tone and architecture of the Ruby Web presence pitched to their level. People will always need to go elsewhere to find important resources, unless we start defining "important" as "hosted on ruby-lang.org" -- and that, as I've said before, would be completely out of keeping with how things have played out, and hopefully will continue to play out, among Ruby programmers everywhere. David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From curt at hibbs.com Wed Feb 23 15:18:41 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Wed Feb 23 15:14:56 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David A. Black > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Ben Giddings wrote: > > > Ok, but would you agree that there are certain resources that really do > > belong on the Ruby homepage? > > Yes -- principally links to projects and resources that are hosted > elsewhere, plus whatever's hosted there. I don't think the line > between those two categories is important. I agree with this. The main thing is to have the important links on ruby-lang.org. Whether those links point to things on or off the ruby-lang.org site is not particularly important. The only thing I would add is that I wouldn't want critically important stuff (whatever you want to define that as being) to be hosted exclusively on sites that could easily go away (say if the owner was hit by a bus). We need to have community backups of important stuff. Curt From maki at rubycolor.org Wed Feb 23 15:45:03 2005 From: maki at rubycolor.org (Masayoshi Takahashi) Date: Wed Feb 23 15:38:47 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050224.054503.56061202.maki@rubycolor.org> Hello, Michel Martens wrote: > The community now is not on ruby-lang, but on this > list, on RedHanded, on LoudThinking, etc. I think Matz want to use *.rubyist.net for communities. In fact, Matz's and some rubiyst's blogs are on http://www.rubyist.net and Nihon Ruby no Kai (Japan Ruby Group) uses http://jp.rubyist.net. IMHO, current ruby-lang.org is for developers or heavy users of Ruby, not beginners nor light users. I don't know it's good or bad, but I think it's not so bad (and not so good). ruby-lang.org should be a trustworthy site. The most important content is official "News and announcements." Useful documents and references are better things, but not "must" things in ruby-lang.org (but at least some important documents must be linked from ruby-lang.org). Regards, Masayoshi 'Maki' Takahashi E-mail: maki@rubycolor.org From zdennis at mktec.com Wed Feb 23 18:53:15 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Wed Feb 23 18:49:27 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421C8D57.3080809@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <421BCB0B.80909@gmail.com> <6a65064605022216492caf6e26@mail.gmail.com> <421C0E6D.6030007@gmail.com> <6a65064605022305122c19d253@mail.gmail.com> <421C8D57.3080809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421D176B.5050003@mktec.com> James Britt wrote: > > My concern is that there may be a narrow perspective overly influenced > by those who just happen to be more vocal. Not that I disagree with your concern James, but you cant assume or guess what people want if they don't speak up. It's like not voting and then being upset that your party lost. > > The question "Why would you go to ruby-lang?" may have things backwards. > It may be better to determine what resources the full Ruby community > needs, and figure out where they should be. Then we'll have a better > idea of what belongs on ruby-lang.org. I like this idea for an approach. > > Offhand, I would sort of expect to be able to go to ruby-lang.org and > quickly find out where to download the latest version. But I would not > think or want to go there to read quirky blog entries, even from matz. Here I sort of disagree. Just due to the popularity of blogs in general in this day in age I would think it would great to have access to some of these blogs, especially Matz's. If ruby-lang.org is only going to be the web-version of a reference book, then I might as well just stick to using google for finding anything ruby related. The ruby-lang site should be a living document, and blogs are the perfect to utilize for part of this IMO. From a marketing perspective I think this makes Ruby look more current to new (younger) users and it provides more of a centralized location for the ruby community. The "living document" idea would keep people coming back to the site, especially if the information (like Matz's blog posting) were accessible from the ruby-lang.org site. Zach Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Wed Feb 23 19:05:27 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Wed Feb 23 19:01:37 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421D1A47.2090805@mktec.com> James Britt wrote: > > Well put. += 1 Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Wed Feb 23 19:06:10 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Wed Feb 23 19:02:22 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <421D1A72.5060006@mktec.com> Ben Giddings wrote: > Newcomers shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. > I agree! Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Wed Feb 23 19:08:40 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Wed Feb 23 19:04:49 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> Ben Giddings wrote: > Newcomers shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. to clarify myself... since I want to make sure I'm not being hypocritical. I agree that newcomers shouldn't need to go to another site to find important resources. However I do believe that if a user is redirected from the ruby-lang.org site to another useful site with that information, that that is just as good! As long as they can find the information FROM the ruby-lang.org site then I agree. But I don't think all important information should have to be listed on ruby-lang.org itself, only that users should be able to get to that information from the ruby-lang.org site. Zach From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 20:10:44 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Wed Feb 23 20:06:01 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> Message-ID: <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> Zach Dennis wrote: > Ben Giddings wrote: > > >> Newcomers shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. > > > to clarify myself... since I want to make sure I'm not being > hypocritical. I agree that newcomers shouldn't need to go to another > site to find important resources. However I do believe that if a user is > redirected from the ruby-lang.org site to another useful site with that > information, that that is just as good! > > As long as they can find the information FROM the ruby-lang.org site > then I agree. But I don't think all important information should have to > be listed on ruby-lang.org itself, only that users should be able to get > to that information from the ruby-lang.org site. This is key. There are numerous advantages to off-loading assorted tasks to other people managing other resources on other machines. It is reasonable to assume that newcomers will end up at ruby-lang.org, and they should have an easy time getting directed to all the resources they need. That the actual resources are hosted on another site is incidental. For example: I believe that the ruby documentation project has helped improve the state of Ruby documentation and that ruby-doc.org has played an important role. The RDP and the documentation progress would have been greatly slowed or nonexistent if I had to go through ruby-lang admins to host ruby-doc content and services as a sub-site of ruby-lang. It would have been too much trouble for all involved. James From james.britt at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 20:28:02 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Wed Feb 23 20:23:19 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421D2DA2.2040401@gmail.com> James Britt wrote: > Zach Dennis wrote: > >> Ben Giddings wrote: >> >> >>> Newcomers shouldn't *need* to go elsewhere to find important resources. >> >> >> >> to clarify myself... since I want to make sure I'm not being >> hypocritical. I agree that newcomers shouldn't need to go to another >> site to find important resources. However I do believe that if a user >> is redirected from the ruby-lang.org site to another useful site with >> that information, that that is just as good! >> >> As long as they can find the information FROM the ruby-lang.org site >> then I agree. But I don't think all important information should have >> to be listed on ruby-lang.org itself, only that users should be able >> to get to that information from the ruby-lang.org site. > > > This is key. There are numerous advantages to off-loading assorted > tasks to other people managing other resources on other machines. One other thing: I'd prefer that this topic not distract from the general matter of improving the look and behavior of ruby-lang.org. Whether or not a link lands you here or there should not be an essential factor in the overall redesign. James From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Wed Feb 23 23:24:20 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Wed Feb 23 23:20:38 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 23, 2005, at 20:10, James Britt wrote: > For example: I believe that the ruby documentation project has helped > improve the state of Ruby documentation and that ruby-doc.org has > played an important role. The RDP and the documentation progress > would have been greatly slowed or nonexistent if I had to go through > ruby-lang admins to host ruby-doc content and services as a sub-site > of ruby-lang. Ok, but what about the idea of promoting (in the employment sense, rather than the advertising sense) good information to the ruby-lang.org site. I'll pick my favourite example: the API and stdlib docs. I *really* think they should go on the official ruby-lang.org site. Here's an example of why. In the "Best ways to accelerate Ruby's popularity" thread, Navindra Umanee said: > As someone who's been lightly dabbling with Ruby recently (and is not > about to stop), you make several good points. > > I can't get rid of the lingering feeling that Ruby is still somewhat > immature/unpolished. Part of the reason is lack of documentation and > sometimes the documentation that I do use is plain wrong or > out-of-date because the Ruby API changes from release to release. Of > course, I'm using RubyCentral for most of my documentation needs -- > they've done a fantastic job, but that's hardly official or > up-to-date. then followed it up with: > Ah, is ruby-doc.org the official source of Ruby documentation then? > http://www.ruby-doc.org/core/ seems a bit overwhelming. That's the whole reason I think that certain resources really should be hosted on ruby-lang.org. ruby-doc.org is a great resource, and contains a whole lot of resources, most of which don't need to be hosted at ruby-lang.org, like "FOX + RUBY = FXRuby Par l'exemple". On the other hand, I think the API and stdlib docs are essential enough that they should become the "official source of Ruby documentation", and that should be made clear by hosting them at ruby-lang.org. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I strongly believe that a newcomer to Ruby, looking for documentation on the language wants to find "the official API documentation" rather than "the documentation some Ruby enthusiast put up". If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that makes it clear that it's official. If there's a link from ruby-lang.org, that suggests the documentation is approved, but not necessarily official. It also makes sense that the API docs be on ruby-lang.org so that when a new version of Ruby is released on the site, the API docs can be updated at exactly the same time. That's my sales pitch. I'm picking the API docs because to me they're the most glaring thing missing from ruby-lang.org, but I think there are a few other things missing. Hopefully we can fill in those gaps, link to the somewhat less essential resources, and end up with the ruby site of my... I mean our dreams. ;) Ben From zdennis at mktec.com Wed Feb 23 23:43:09 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Wed Feb 23 23:43:59 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421D5B5D.3010303@mktec.com> Ben Giddings wrote: > On Feb 23, 2005, at 20:10, James Britt wrote: > >> For example: I believe that the ruby documentation project has helped >> improve the state of Ruby documentation and that ruby-doc.org has >> played an important role. The RDP and the documentation progress >> would have been greatly slowed or nonexistent if I had to go through >> ruby-lang admins to host ruby-doc content and services as a sub-site >> of ruby-lang. > > > Ok, but what about the idea of promoting (in the employment sense, > rather than the advertising sense) good information to the ruby-lang.org > site. > > I'll pick my favourite example: the API and stdlib docs. I *really* > think they should go on the official ruby-lang.org site. Here's an > example of why. > > In the "Best ways to accelerate Ruby's popularity" thread, Navindra > Umanee said: > >> As someone who's been lightly dabbling with Ruby recently (and is not >> about to stop), you make several good points. >> >> I can't get rid of the lingering feeling that Ruby is still somewhat >> immature/unpolished. Part of the reason is lack of documentation and >> sometimes the documentation that I do use is plain wrong or >> out-of-date because the Ruby API changes from release to release. Of >> course, I'm using RubyCentral for most of my documentation needs -- >> they've done a fantastic job, but that's hardly official or >> up-to-date. who declares official? > > > then followed it up with: > >> Ah, is ruby-doc.org the official source of Ruby documentation then? >> http://www.ruby-doc.org/core/ seems a bit overwhelming. This is probably how the documentation is laid out, hardly the url that gets Navindra there. > > > That's the whole reason I think that certain resources really should be > hosted on ruby-lang.org. Both of those suggest some things, but neither strike me as them needing to be hosted by the ruby-lang.org server. If it happened great, but if you are looking at the url to where you are to determine if something is "official" then you are hardly there for the language. > > Maybe I'm alone in this, but I strongly believe that a newcomer to Ruby, > looking for documentation on the language wants to find "the official > API documentation" rather than "the documentation some Ruby enthusiast > put up". So have the ruby0doc.org crew put in their title bar of the Internet Browser "Official Ruby Language Documentation Web Site". If the ruby-lang.org site says that the official docs can be found at ruby-doc.org and there is a link to that site i think the user will get the point, and they will get to the docs >If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that makes it clear > that it's official. If there's a link from ruby-lang.org, that suggests > the documentation is approved, but not necessarily official. I dont buy the "official", "non-official" thing in the context of ruby-lang.org. Anyways, I think this can be brought up at a later date when it's more in context. We need to get the site up to par and the functionality and experience for the user down pat first (as well as the GUI). Once that is done, and the docs move to http://www.ruby-lang.org/docs then just update the links on the ruby-lang.org site. Easy as pie. No need to have such a big debate about it now. > > That's my sales pitch. I'm picking the API docs because to me they're > the most glaring thing missing from ruby-lang.org, but I think there are > a few other things missing. Hopefully we can fill in those gaps, link > to the somewhat less essential resources, and end up with the ruby site > of my... I mean our dreams. ;) > I see what you want, I don't disagree with it entirely, but at this point in the process I don't think it's very important. I think we should revisit this once some other groundwork is done first. Zach From martindemello at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 23:55:37 2005 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Wed Feb 23 23:51:47 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:25:30 -0800 (PST), David A. Black wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Martin DeMello wrote: > > I'd second this - I think the primary purposes of ruby-lang should be > > (i) A place for newcomers to get a good introduction to the language > > and (ii) The official site for ruby resources (sources, platform > > binaries, documentation, tutorials, advocacy material, faqs, 'real > > world ruby' stories, links to application repositories and the wiki, > > etc) > > I would be cautious about the centralization (physically) of > resources, as well as about the notion of "official" resources. > Physical centralization doesn't make sense for many things -- > especially advocacy material, which should be as far-flung as > possible, but also documentation and tutorials. (I can't think of any > reason to go to the trouble of moving the online Pickaxe, Why's > Poignant Guide, Chris Pine's "Programming through Ruby" site, etc., to > a single server; it would just be busy-work). I didn't mean physical centralization, merely that ruby-lang.org rather than (say) google should be the starting point to get at them. > Similarly, things that are not on the ruby-lang.org server must not be > cast in the role of second-rate or unimportant. This is where the > notion of "official" materials can be counter-productive. The > official site should point with pride and joy to the great things that > have been done, and continue to be done, around the net on behalf of > Ruby. The community has already outgrown -- or simply not bothered > with -- a strict official/non-official division, particularly along > server lines. Hm - perhaps the word 'official' was ill-chosen in that regard. I'm coming at this strongly from the perspective that ruby-lang.org's primary audience is a newcomer, and I think that an important resource for someone setting out to learn a language is a "contained" source of information. The illusion he needs is that here's a nice bay where he can learn all the essentials before venturing out into the larger sea of third party ruby pages. For instance, when I was exploring OCaml, I far preferred the Caml page at http://caml.inria.fr/ to the OCaml one at http://www.ocaml.org/ - the former had a "this is everything you need to get started" feel to it, whereas the latter, with its central newsticker and everything off in the sidebars, said "this is the OCaml splash screen; you'll need to go off along a bunch of winding trails to get a good start on the language". The interesting thing is in this case they presented roughly the same information, but the layout of the .fr page had a better illusion of self-containedness. Note also that it made no difference to me if the links lead to somewhere on the same site or to a different site, I just needed the comfort of knowing that someone had gone through all the OCaml pages out there and selected a few recommended ones to get me started. I believe that if we follow this approach, there will *not* be a partitioning of ruby sites into 'official' and 'second-rate'; rather, there'll be a handy "ruby in a nutshell" page for beginners, and a wider set of community resources that they'll naturally gravitate towards once they've gotten their feet wet. martin From todd at slack.net Thu Feb 24 00:56:26 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Thu Feb 24 00:48:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] lang/doc split In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050224055626.GA9451@detroit.slack.net> * Ben Giddings [2005-02-23 23:29]: > If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that > makes it clear that it's official. If there's a link from > ruby-lang.org, that suggests the documentation is approved, but not > necessarily official. Perl kind of has the same distributed, somewhat redundant and confusing situation as ruby, in that there's: - perl.org # a bit random, loosly organized - perl.com # fancy, O'Reilly-backed site - [ + many other random "user" sites] both of which point to search.cpan.org for docs. Perl.com though does a nice job of breaking out sections, providing a nice overview of all the docs available - they also note the source for each set of docs, which at a glance all appear to be [Source: search.cpan.org]: http://www.perl.com/pub/q/documentation I think the docs on the main site is preferable, but perl shows if it's done well it's perfectly usable. It would be nice if there was *some* consistency between lang and docs, even just the main color used like between perl.com and cpan.org ("perl blue", originally from the camel book I'd guess). -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Thu Feb 24 07:32:35 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Thu Feb 24 07:30:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <5b1d0c600502230732cc908d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <421C8E0A.1020807@gmail.com> <5b1d0c600502230732cc908d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, James Britt wrote: > I recall having assorted problems getting rubyxml.com to correctly > show up on the list whenever I added new content. After a while I > just forgot about it. There are problems: Apache doesn't seem to produce a Last-Modified Header http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.29 and I can't figure out how to enable it. There are things to do so with mod_perl, and for active pages, but there seems tobe nothing in the core to do it. As a result things don't get sorted correctly. However, the stuff below may be of some use to someone. Yes, it could be improved, but it does enough for me now. Hugh List of active Ruby Sites

List of active Ruby Sites

<% require 'net/http' require 'uri' require 'date' # Get a list of sites to process class Site attr_accessor :url, :name, :date, :failed def initialize(url, name) @url = url; @name = name; @date = DateTime.now; @failed = false end end Sites = [Site.new('http://www.ruby-lang.org/', 'www.ruby-lang.org/'), Site.new('http://redhanded.hobix.com/', 'Redhanded'), Site.new('http://www.ruby-doc.org/', 'Ruby-doc'), Site.new('http://www.rubyquiz.com/', 'Ruby Quiz'), Site.new('http://rubyforge.org/', 'RubyForge'), Site.new('http://rubyxml.com/', 'Ruby XML'), Site.new('http://raa.ruby-lang.org/', 'Ruby Application Archive'), Site.new('http://www.rubygarden.org/', 'RubyGarden')] Sites.each {|site| uri = URI.parse(site.url) host = uri.host port = uri.port path = uri.path begin Net::HTTP.start(host, port) {|http| response = http.request_head(path) if response.key?('last-modified') site.date = DateTime.parse(response['last-modified']) else site.date = DateTime.civil(1970) end } rescue site.failed = true end } %>

Note, Dates of 1970 mean the server doesn't provide a Last-Modified: header.

Page generated <%= DateTime.now %> with erb

From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 08:48:23 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 08:43:48 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> Ben Giddings wrote: > On Feb 23, 2005, at 20:10, James Britt wrote: > >> For example: I believe that the ruby documentation project has helped >> improve the state of Ruby documentation and that ruby-doc.org has >> played an important role. The RDP and the documentation progress >> would have been greatly slowed or nonexistent if I had to go through >> ruby-lang admins to host ruby-doc content and services as a sub-site >> of ruby-lang. > > > Ok, but what about the idea of promoting (in the employment sense, > rather than the advertising sense) good information to the ruby-lang.org > site. I don't understand your phrasing, "promoting good information to the ruby-lang.org site." Do you mean having links back to ruby-lang.org? That's certainly appropriate. > > I'll pick my favourite example: the API and stdlib docs. I *really* > think they should go on the official ruby-lang.org site. Here's an > example of why. There should be obvious links tot he core and std-lib docs on ruby-lang.org. Whether the should hosted there is a other matter. I would argue that they should, but it isn't essential. > > In the "Best ways to accelerate Ruby's popularity" thread, Navindra > Umanee said: > >> As someone who's been lightly dabbling with Ruby recently (and is not >> about to stop), you make several good points. >> >> I can't get rid of the lingering feeling that Ruby is still somewhat >> immature/unpolished. Part of the reason is lack of documentation and >> sometimes the documentation that I do use is plain wrong or >> out-of-date because the Ruby API changes from release to release. Of >> course, I'm using RubyCentral for most of my documentation needs -- >> they've done a fantastic job, but that's hardly official or >> up-to-date. The issue here may be that there are multiple sites hosting Ruby docs, but not hosting the most recent docs. I believe the above comment refers to a reference work on RubyCentral that covered Ruby 1.6. People would do better to use ruby-doc that RubyCentral for documentation, but ideally is shouldn't matter; the docs are easy to generate or download, so any site that wants to mirror them can easily do so. > > > then followed it up with: > >> Ah, is ruby-doc.org the official source of Ruby documentation then? >> http://www.ruby-doc.org/core/ seems a bit overwhelming. > > > That's the whole reason I think that certain resources really should be > hosted on ruby-lang.org. Would http://www.ruby-lang.org/core/ be less overwhelming? > > ruby-doc.org is a great resource, and contains a whole lot of resources, > most of which don't need to be hosted at ruby-lang.org, like "FOX + RUBY > = FXRuby Par l'exemple". On the other hand, I think the API and stdlib > docs are essential enough that they should become the "official source > of Ruby documentation", and that should be made clear by hosting them at > ruby-lang.org. > > Maybe I'm alone in this, but I strongly believe that a newcomer to Ruby, > looking for documentation on the language wants to find "the official > API documentation" rather than "the documentation some Ruby enthusiast > put up". They are the same thing. Pretty much everything in Rubyland happens because of enthusiasts. Perhaps new comers would have an easier time if the doc links were on ruby-lang.org, but I have a hard time believing that if those links went to another site that the user would find the docs less useful or authoritative. My main concerns with what gets hosted where has more to do with enabling faster growth and more responsive behavior by distributing work and resources. Hosting the docs is trivial, so I have no beef with having them on ruby-lang.org. So long as everyone hosting the docs has the latest version and everyone stays in sync. So I would suggest that ruby-lang use a cron job to download docs from ruby-doc.org. (Just don't run it every 2 minutes.) If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that makes it clear > that it's official. If there's a link from ruby-lang.org, that suggests > the documentation is approved, but not necessarily official. That's an substantiated claim, but I've pretty much said all I can say on this. See above and about a dozen other posts from myself and a some others. Truth is, I've heard dozens of people tell me what a great resource ruby-doc is (though all real props go to the doc writers), and not a single person has said they they personally felt the docs were less than official or authentic. James From blaumag at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 09:03:47 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Thu Feb 24 08:59:56 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] lang/doc split In-Reply-To: <20050224055626.GA9451@detroit.slack.net> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <20050224055626.GA9451@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <6a650646050224060377452489@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:56:26 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > * Ben Giddings [2005-02-23 23:29]: > > > If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that > > makes it clear that it's official. If there's a link from > > ruby-lang.org, that suggests the documentation is approved, but not > > necessarily official. > > I think the docs on the main site is preferable, but perl shows if > it's done well it's perfectly usable. It would be nice if there was > *some* consistency between lang and docs, even just the main color > used like between perl.com and cpan.org ("perl blue", originally from > the camel book I'd guess). In my opinion, there can be many tutorials, user guides, FAQs, "Getting started in Ruby by Joe Doe", written in lots of different languages, and all of them can coexist at ruby-doc.org. But there should be (again, in my opinion) one and only one reference and one and only one intro integrated into the ruby-lang.org website. A "Learn more..." link from the reference or the intro pointing to ruby-doc.org will suffice. About internationalization, maybe it can be progressive, starting with just the "Intro" being translated into as many languages as we know. I can take care of the Spanish. Michel. From dblack at wobblini.net Thu Feb 24 09:35:16 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Thu Feb 24 09:31:25 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] lang/doc split In-Reply-To: <6a650646050224060377452489@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <20050224055626.GA9451@detroit.slack.net> <6a650646050224060377452489@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI -- On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Michel Martens wrote: > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:56:26 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: >> * Ben Giddings [2005-02-23 23:29]: >> >>> If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that >>> makes it clear that it's official. If there's a link from >>> ruby-lang.org, that suggests the documentation is approved, but not >>> necessarily official. >> >> I think the docs on the main site is preferable, but perl shows if >> it's done well it's perfectly usable. It would be nice if there was >> *some* consistency between lang and docs, even just the main color >> used like between perl.com and cpan.org ("perl blue", originally from >> the camel book I'd guess). > > In my opinion, there can be many tutorials, user guides, FAQs, > "Getting started in Ruby by Joe Doe", written in lots of different > languages, and all of them can coexist at ruby-doc.org. But there > should be (again, in my opinion) one and only one reference and one > and only one intro integrated into the ruby-lang.org website. A "Learn > more..." link from the reference or the intro pointing to ruby-doc.org > will suffice. How does that better serve the visitor than having, say, a list of tutorials, including a direct link to the online Pickaxe? The architecture of any given site does not have to be determined or constrained by any other site -- meaning, in this case, that if a direct link to something seems desireable for visitors to Ruby's homepage, then there should be such a link, not just a straight line to some other page where there is such a link. I'm actually a little surprised that this -- the fundamental constructive principle of the Web, not to mention Gopher -- is such a sticking point. David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From todd at slack.net Thu Feb 24 09:59:01 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Thu Feb 24 09:50:56 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever is running this show should probably just make the call or this is likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get frustrated and leave. Over a year ago I tried to help out with a similar project for python, and this exact situation brought it down in flames. Everyone spent lots of time and effort, all for naught since there was no "manager" and eventually Guido actually stepped in and shut down the effort. I think we should try to avoid a similar outcome (though matz sounds a bit more carefree [in a good way]!) -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From blaumag at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 10:09:24 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:05:34 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] lang/doc split In-Reply-To: References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <20050224055626.GA9451@detroit.slack.net> <6a650646050224060377452489@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a65064605022407096d2346e3@mail.gmail.com> It serves better to have just one voice giving you the welcome message and explaining what Ruby is and what it does (intro and reference), and not an overwhelming choir of voices, each telling its own version. Once you know what it is, you can pick the tutorial, manual or user guide you want. Michel On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:35:16 -0800 (PST), David A. Black wrote: > HI -- > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Michel Martens wrote: > > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:56:26 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > >> * Ben Giddings [2005-02-23 23:29]: > >> > >>> If the documentation is on ruby-lang.org, that > >>> makes it clear that it's official. If there's a link from > >>> ruby-lang.org, that suggests the documentation is approved, but not > >>> necessarily official. > >> > >> I think the docs on the main site is preferable, but perl shows if > >> it's done well it's perfectly usable. It would be nice if there was > >> *some* consistency between lang and docs, even just the main color > >> used like between perl.com and cpan.org ("perl blue", originally from > >> the camel book I'd guess). > > > > In my opinion, there can be many tutorials, user guides, FAQs, > > "Getting started in Ruby by Joe Doe", written in lots of different > > languages, and all of them can coexist at ruby-doc.org. But there > > should be (again, in my opinion) one and only one reference and one > > and only one intro integrated into the ruby-lang.org website. A "Learn > > more..." link from the reference or the intro pointing to ruby-doc.org > > will suffice. > > How does that better serve the visitor than having, say, a list of > tutorials, including a direct link to the online Pickaxe? The > architecture of any given site does not have to be determined or > constrained by any other site -- meaning, in this case, that if a > direct link to something seems desireable for visitors to Ruby's > homepage, then there should be such a link, not just a straight line > to some other page where there is such a link. > > I'm actually a little surprised that this -- the fundamental > constructive principle of the Web, not to mention Gopher -- is such a > sticking point. > > David > > -- > David A. Black > dblack@wobblini.net > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From agorilla at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 10:17:50 2005 From: agorilla at gmail.com (Bill Guindon) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:14:00 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <67a222920502240717689d4a5e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:59:01 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about > "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever > is running this show should probably just make the call or this is > likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get > frustrated and leave. > > Over a year ago I tried to help out with a similar project for python, > and this exact situation brought it down in flames. Everyone spent > lots of time and effort, all for naught since there was no "manager" > and eventually Guido actually stepped in and shut down the effort. I > think we should try to avoid a similar outcome (though matz sounds a > bit more carefree [in a good way]!) +1 -- Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla) From blaumag at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 10:27:11 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:23:21 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <6a6506460502240727420d9d1a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:59:01 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about > "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever > is running this show should probably just make the call or this is > likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get > frustrated and leave. I've been in a similar situation when trying to redesign gnome.org. I left early, maybe two months into a project that eventually took years (and the outcome wasn't that good, in my opinion). My proposal: - Set a deadline for defining the voting system - Set a deadline for defining the groups to be formed. - Set a deadline for defining the participants of each group. - Set a deadline for delivering a design mockup. - Set a deadline for delivering the final version. - Set a deadline for implementing the redesigned website. I would prefer to have very little time between deadlines --i.e. one week for each milestone-- and let the small groups decide on their workflow. Michel. From david at loudthinking.com Thu Feb 24 10:31:54 2005 From: david at loudthinking.com (David Heinemeier Hansson) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:28:12 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: > I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about > "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever > is running this show should probably just make the call or this is > likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get > frustrated and leave. I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry, but I've already tuned out of the discussions. IMHO, there's nothing to talk about the first draft from the 3-person crew is available. "Getting Real" is what we call it in 37signals. -- David Heinemeier Hansson, http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 10:36:53 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 10:33:04 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] lang/doc splitting headache In-Reply-To: <6a65064605022407096d2346e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3223c9cfb0d96cbe29e3a9343ee5adcb@lypanov.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <20050224055626.GA9451@detroit.slack.net> <6a650646050224060377452489@mail.gmail.com> <6a65064605022407096d2346e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c600502240736fda7705@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:09:24 -0300, Michel Martens wrote: > It serves better to have just one voice giving you the welcome message > and explaining what Ruby is and what it does (intro and reference), > and not an overwhelming choir of voices, each telling its own version. > Once you know what it is, you can pick the tutorial, manual or user > guide you want. > > Michel > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:35:16 -0800 (PST), David A. Black > wrote: > > HI -- > > ... > > > > How does that better serve the visitor than having, say, a list of > > tutorials, including a direct link to the online Pickaxe? The > > architecture of any given site does not have to be determined or > > constrained by any other site -- meaning, in this case, that if a > > direct link to something seems desireable for visitors to Ruby's > > homepage, then there should be such a link, not just a straight line > > to some other page where there is such a link. > > > > I'm actually a little surprised that this -- the fundamental > > constructive principle of the Web, not to mention Gopher -- is such a > > sticking point. I agree with David here; I, too, am puzzled by the insistence on such a heavy-handed approach to hosting. But I've pretty much said all I can on that, and I really don't want to see this become a major distraction. Is it unrealistic or troublesome to move on with the redesign of ruby-lang, with the consensual illusion that everything will be hosted on ruby-lang.org, and then later on, after seeing just what that amounts to, argue the pros and cons based on user expectations, server load, content maintenance, bureaucratic impedance, and so on? We can just *pretend* all will be hosted on ruby-lang, just so some actual progress can be made. James From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 11:05:20 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 11:01:29 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <5b1d0c60050224080515987424@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:54 +0100, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote: > > I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about > > "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever > > is running this show should probably just make the call or this is > > likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get > > frustrated and leave. > > I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry, but I've already tuned out of the > discussions. IMHO, there's nothing to talk about the first draft from > the 3-person crew is available. "Getting Real" is what we call it in > 37signals. Nothing to talk about? Was the purpose of forming a mailing list and inviting participants just to select a 3-person crew? Where is the first draft of the site? There is no link on the vit wiki, and I can't find anything from browsing the pages. On a related note, maybe that 3-person crew could put an actual site at http://vit.rubyforge.org/ 'Coming soon!' doesn't speak well of a Web design group. (They'll likely be less discussion about that site anyway.) I don't want to see endless discussion on side topics, but I do have to wonder about a discussion list that discourages discussion. The Vit wiki says this: "Right now we are just getting started. Take a moment if you can and help us organize this site. What are our goals? What is our true purpose (please edit the above). How should the RubyLangDotOrg redesign proceed? How can/should people contribute?" It then encourages people to join the mailing list. I get the impression from this that the project is, um, just getting started, and that discussion is encouraged. If discussion is over, or certain topics are now off-limits, then perhaps the site should clarify this. Of course, if the site is out of date, I have to admit I enjoy the irony. James From curt at hibbs.com Thu Feb 24 11:20:01 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Thu Feb 24 11:16:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: Todd Grimason wrote: > > I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about > "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever > is running this show should probably just make the call or this is > likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get > frustrated and leave. > > Over a year ago I tried to help out with a similar project for python, > and this exact situation brought it down in flames. Everyone spent > lots of time and effort, all for naught since there was no "manager" > and eventually Guido actually stepped in and shut down the effort. I > think we should try to avoid a similar outcome (though matz sounds a > bit more carefree [in a good way]!) If you all recall, I laid out the ground rules in my original posts at the beginning of this week: - The core visual design team will consist of no more than 3 people (must be actual producing contributors, not mere commentators). - This group will do the hard work of the redesign in tight collaboration and periodically present their results to the rest of us for feedback. - This feedback will be considered advisements which the core team will be free to accept or reject at their discretion. This should give each of us influence over the final result while avoiding the gridlock and committee-style blandness that often accompanies larger groups. This was the week to find out who is willing to be on the team, as well as brainstorm for the initial input to the core team. I will be appointing the core team by the end of this week. So that work can begin in earnest next week (I will set up a separate mailing list for them to converse in their working deliberations). So far the possible choices are: - Ben Giddings - John Long - Michel Martens - Why the Lucky Stiff If you don't want to be on this list, let me know. If want to be on the list and you're not, let me know. Thanks, Curt From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 11:58:15 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 11:54:24 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: References: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <5b1d0c60050224085845a818ed@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:20:01 -0600, Curt Hibbs wrote: > If you all recall, I laid out the ground rules in my original posts at the > beginning of this week: > > - The core visual design team will consist of no more > than 3 people (must be actual producing contributors, > not mere commentators). > > - This group will do the hard work of the redesign in tight > collaboration and periodically present their results to the > rest of us for feedback. > > - This feedback will be considered advisements which > the core team will be free to accept or reject at their > discretion. > > This should give each of us influence over the final result while avoiding > the gridlock and committee-style blandness that often accompanies larger > groups. > > This was the week to find out who is willing to be on the team, as well as > brainstorm for the initial input to the core team. I will be appointing the > core team by the end of this week. So that work can begin in earnest next > week (I will set up a separate mailing list for them to converse in their > working deliberations). Thanks for the clarification. Does "visual team" also include information architecture, i.e. what the site is supposed to *do* independent (sort of) of specific layout and theme? Some of the mock ups I've seen from earlier discussions on ruby-talk seem to take the current content and behavior of ruby-lang as a given. Much of the discussion of late here seems to be focused on who are the target audiences, what are their needs, and how might these needs be addressed. If these things are not clear, then a visual team may not have enough information to produce an appropriate draft, and people will have no clear means to judge whether the draft satisfies the requirements beyond personal aesthetic taste. There is an argument to be made for simply taking ruby-lang as-is, not altering any content or behavior, and just addressing matters of usability and aesthetics. Get that done, then reconvene to see about the deeper issues. Maybe that is the correct scope of of a visual identify team, and perhaps what was intended all along, but the vit wiki suggests a broader set of goals. James From curt at hibbs.com Thu Feb 24 12:05:08 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Thu Feb 24 12:01:21 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <5b1d0c60050224085845a818ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: James Britt wrote: > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:58 AM > To: vit-discuss@rubyforge.org > Subject: Re: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! > > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:20:01 -0600, Curt Hibbs wrote: > > If you all recall, I laid out the ground rules in my original > posts at the > > beginning of this week: > > > > - The core visual design team will consist of no more > > than 3 people (must be actual producing contributors, > > not mere commentators). > > > > - This group will do the hard work of the redesign in tight > > collaboration and periodically present their results to the > > rest of us for feedback. > > > > - This feedback will be considered advisements which > > the core team will be free to accept or reject at their > > discretion. > > > > This should give each of us influence over the final result > while avoiding > > the gridlock and committee-style blandness that often accompanies larger > > groups. > > > > This was the week to find out who is willing to be on the team, > as well as > > brainstorm for the initial input to the core team. I will be > appointing the > > core team by the end of this week. So that work can begin in > earnest next > > week (I will set up a separate mailing list for them to > converse in their > > working deliberations). > > Thanks for the clarification. Does "visual team" also include > information architecture, i.e. what the site is supposed to *do* > independent (sort of) of specific layout and theme? Some of the mock > ups I've seen from earlier discussions on ruby-talk seem to take the > current content and behavior of ruby-lang as a given. Yes, it should. And we are all here to provide our opinions and perspectives (which you are doing below :-). Curt > Much of the discussion of late here seems to be focused on who are the > target audiences, what are their needs, and how might these needs be > addressed. If these things are not clear, then a visual team may > not have enough information to produce an appropriate draft, and > people will have no clear means to judge whether the draft satisfies > the requirements beyond personal aesthetic taste. > > There is an argument to be made for simply taking ruby-lang as-is, not > altering any content or behavior, and just addressing matters of > usability and aesthetics. Get that done, then reconvene to see about > the deeper issues. Maybe that is the correct scope of of a visual > identify team, and perhaps what was intended all along, but the vit > wiki suggests a broader set of goals. > > James From rampant at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:11:54 2005 From: rampant at gmail.com (Douglas Livingstone) Date: Thu Feb 24 12:08:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] content refreshness or lack of [was Brainstorming] In-Reply-To: <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> References: <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563094460502240911134b82e0@mail.gmail.com> > > Maybe I'm alone in this, but I strongly believe that a newcomer to Ruby, > > looking for documentation on the language wants to find "the official > > API documentation" rather than "the documentation some Ruby enthusiast > > put up". > > They are the same thing. It doesn't matter who writes the docs, but there has to be someone to say "this documentation corresponds to this download of this version of Ruby". Putting the two parts in different places with no clear correlation just seems like an excersise in politics to me, a "we wrote them so we want to host them" attitude which doesn't help people learn Ruby. > > That's the whole reason I think that certain resources really should be > > hosted on ruby-lang.org. > > Would http://www.ruby-lang.org/core/ be less overwhelming? It all depends on how the documentation is written and presented. At the moment the core docs are not new-user friendly. The best resource I've found online is the pickaxe, though it is out of date. Perhaps there are other resources... If a redesign does not let me say to someone "Download Ruby and read about what you are downloading from ruby-lang.org" then that wouldn't be much more progress than where it is at the moment. With PHP the docs are hosted all over the place, but one click from the php.net front page and you've got access to all the docs you need. Douglas From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Thu Feb 24 13:02:27 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Thu Feb 24 12:58:11 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <6a65064605022215117b44b158@mail.gmail.com> <20050222233825.GB22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <421E16B3.8020707@infofiend.com> Todd Grimason wrote: > I think the point raised by David HH from Rails to someone here about > "design by committee" has made its first appearance already. Whomever > is running this show should probably just make the call or this is > likely to continue indefinitely, ad nauseum, and people will get > frustrated and leave. > > Over a year ago I tried to help out with a similar project for python, > and this exact situation brought it down in flames. Everyone spent > lots of time and effort, all for naught since there was no "manager" > and eventually Guido actually stepped in and shut down the effort. I > think we should try to avoid a similar outcome (though matz sounds a > bit more carefree [in a good way]!) Only a couple of problems, we don't really have any managers (yet) and this was labelled a "brainstorming" topic, so it's not too bad that it would get out of hand. Meanwhile, people like Hugh Sasse are still contributing useful comments to the other threads (accessibility, etc). I think we can abandon this discussion for the moment, although eventually a decision will need to be made about what gets hosted on ruby-lang.org, and what gets pointed to instead. I don't think the two sides are all that far apart. If I read things correctly, James Britt says he thinks the core API docs should be hosted on ruby-lang.org as well, so it's really just a matter of where do we draw the line. Since that's something that may be dictated by the final look of the site, then it probably makes sense to wait. Ben From todd at slack.net Thu Feb 24 13:20:20 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Thu Feb 24 13:12:13 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) Message-ID: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> http://slack.net/~todd/ruby/ problems? -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From zdennis at mktec.com Thu Feb 24 13:57:32 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Thu Feb 24 13:53:41 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) In-Reply-To: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <421E239C.1010204@mktec.com> Todd Grimason wrote: > http://slack.net/~todd/ruby/ > > problems? I think they well illustrates what should happen. Thanks for the imagery! Maybe this will aide with clarification. I agree with what you've got here! Zach From curt at hibbs.com Thu Feb 24 14:40:17 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:36:23 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) In-Reply-To: <421E239C.1010204@mktec.com> Message-ID: Zach Dennis wrote: > > Todd Grimason wrote: > > http://slack.net/~todd/ruby/ > > > > problems? > > I think they well illustrates what should happen. Thanks for the > imagery! Maybe this will aide with clarification. I agree with what > you've got here! I think this is precisely what James Britt suggested (using only words, of course). Curt From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Thu Feb 24 14:49:52 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:45:36 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421E2FE0.1000902@infofiend.com> So far in this thread, I think we have general agreement about the following: Curt Hibbs wrote: > - What should is be/do/look? * minimal, simple, clean (not overwhelming with links, etc) * better search (both easier to find, and more functional) * accessible for people with disabilities * available in multiple languages (en & jp are a must, others are very desirable) * emphasize key areas: downloads, news, documentation * some kind of logo * standards-compliant (valid HTML, CSS, ...) * easy to maintain > - What should it not be/do/look? * red and white just because of "Ruby", it's more important that it be readable * chock full'o animated gifs, instead use few, if any, animated gifs, rotating images, or otherwise "moving things" * out-of-date -- some means should be found to make sure that the site stays current * use obfuscated urls -- you should know at a glance what info you might find at a given URL, rather than http://ruby-lang.org/en/2304982034.html The controversial areas seem to be: * The "blogginess" of the site. Should it be bloggy, or should it be mostly static / more corporate? * How much is too much? There should clearly be a "download" link, but Why's Poignant Guide probably doesn't belong there, but where do we draw the line? Am I missing any agreed on must-haves, must-not-haves? Am I missing any other areas of controversy? Ben From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 14:53:43 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:49:51 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] I'm getting the manager! In-Reply-To: <421E16B3.8020707@infofiend.com> References: <20050222225334.GA22405@detroit.slack.net> <5aeedd7078e85f462ec894cafebac04f@infofiend.com> <421D1B08.9000306@mktec.com> <421D2994.1070103@gmail.com> <421DDB27.9070004@gmail.com> <20050224145901.GA21933@detroit.slack.net> <421E16B3.8020707@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c60050224115341e0f7cc@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:02:27 -0500, Ben Giddings wrote: I don't think the two > sides are all that far apart. If I read things correctly, James Britt > says he thinks the core API docs should be hosted on ruby-lang.org as > well, so it's really just a matter of where do we draw the line. Since > that's something that may be dictated by the final look of the site, > then it probably makes sense to wait. I've been discussing some approaches to this with Hugh such that very little changes on the ruby-doc side of things would be required, and ruby-lang (and presumably others) could easily mirror the API docs from ruby-doc.org with minimal human intervention. James From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 14:56:20 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:52:29 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) In-Reply-To: References: <421E239C.1010204@mktec.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c6005022411566847c4dd@mail.gmail.com> > > I think this is precisely what James Britt suggested (using only words, of > course). Indeed, I relied on mere text. James From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Thu Feb 24 15:02:47 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Thu Feb 24 14:58:48 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) In-Reply-To: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <9256e02c6c55773efa5804b3c845c827@lypanov.net> [apologies for the bluntness that i'm gonna use in the coming days. i'm extremely busy so just want to stay factual. okay not exactly ilias style factual. but i'm gonna keep to the point] On Feb 24, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Todd Grimason wrote: > http://slack.net/~todd/ruby/ > problems? i think that the splitting of stdlib and core for the purpose of a documentation site is gravely flawed Alex From zdennis at mktec.com Thu Feb 24 15:18:11 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:14:20 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421E2FE0.1000902@infofiend.com> References: <421E2FE0.1000902@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <421E3683.7080608@mktec.com> Ben Giddings wrote: > The controversial areas seem to be: > > * The "blogginess" of the site. Should it be bloggy, or should it be > mostly static / more corporate? I know you are just listing things Ben, and I like your summary list thus far. To voice an opinion here to the rest of the group, why can you not incorporate a corporate style look with blog-like information? No one said blogs had to look bloggy. Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Thu Feb 24 15:20:54 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:17:01 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421E3683.7080608@mktec.com> References: <421E2FE0.1000902@infofiend.com> <421E3683.7080608@mktec.com> Message-ID: <421E3726.3010208@mktec.com> Zach Dennis wrote: > Ben Giddings wrote: > >> The controversial areas seem to be: >> >> * The "blogginess" of the site. Should it be bloggy, or should it be >> mostly static / more corporate? > > > I know you are just listing things Ben, and I like your summary list > thus far. To voice an opinion here to the rest of the group, why can you "you" i dont mean you Ben Giddings personally, but you as in the rest of the group. Zach From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Thu Feb 24 15:39:52 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:35:36 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Brainstorming In-Reply-To: <421E3726.3010208@mktec.com> References: <421E2FE0.1000902@infofiend.com> <421E3683.7080608@mktec.com> <421E3726.3010208@mktec.com> Message-ID: <421E3B98.6080807@infofiend.com> Zach Dennis wrote: > Zach Dennis wrote: > >> Ben Giddings wrote: >> >>> The controversial areas seem to be: >>> >>> * The "blogginess" of the site. Should it be bloggy, or should it be >>> mostly static / more corporate? >> >> >> >> I know you are just listing things Ben, and I like your summary list >> thus far. To voice an opinion here to the rest of the group, why can you > > > "you" i dont mean you Ben Giddings personally, but you as in the rest of > the group. That's good, cuz my answer was going to be "um... I can't design nothin!" Do you mind starting another thread for that discussion though? I'm hoping that my post could be used to summarize what the various opinions are, and not to discuss the merits of the various views. You could kick off that new thread with an an example of a corporatey - yet bloggey site. Hmmm, for some reason I just have an urge to add "Blimey!" Ben From chneukirchen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 15:55:50 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:52:05 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) In-Reply-To: <9256e02c6c55773efa5804b3c845c827@lypanov.net> (Alexander Kellett's message of "Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:02:47 +0100") References: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> <9256e02c6c55773efa5804b3c845c827@lypanov.net> Message-ID: Alexander Kellett writes: > [apologies for the bluntness that i'm gonna use in the coming days. > i'm extremely busy so just want to stay factual. okay not exactly > ilias style factual. but i'm gonna keep to the point] this is off-topic, please have respect with me... > On Feb 24, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Todd Grimason wrote: >> http://slack.net/~todd/ruby/ >> problems? > > i think that the splitting of stdlib and > core for the purpose of a documentation site > is gravely flawed I'd rather like them to be mixed, too. > Alex -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 16:02:50 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 15:59:00 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] 1 == 1000 (hopefully) In-Reply-To: <9256e02c6c55773efa5804b3c845c827@lypanov.net> References: <20050224182020.GB21933@detroit.slack.net> <9256e02c6c55773efa5804b3c845c827@lypanov.net> Message-ID: <5b1d0c600502241302325691c1@mail.gmail.com> > i think that the splitting of stdlib and > core for the purpose of a documentation site > is gravely flawed Not the issue at hand. Join the ruby-doc list and help us work it out there. James From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 16:18:54 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:15:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful Message-ID: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> Not blogs as a whole; that's was just a cheap way to get attention. Why I'm against incorporating a blog on ruby-lang * Blogs by nature are personal voices. ruby-lang.org should focus on objective features of Ruby, not some people's point of view or pet projects * Many people are blogging about Ruby. Not all of them deserve to be on ruby-lang.org. Who picks, and by what criteria? It reeks of AmIOfficialRubyOrNot.com * Blogs require devotion, a steady flow of content. Things look stale when they have an expiration date next to them. There will be enough things to look after as it is * Blog content is easier to get in any number of other ways than going to the home page of a programing language James Britt Proud Ruby blogger From zdennis at mktec.com Thu Feb 24 16:26:13 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:22:22 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> James Britt wrote: > Not blogs as a whole; that's was just a cheap way to get attention. > > Why I'm against incorporating a blog on ruby-lang > > * Blogs by nature are personal voices. ruby-lang.org should focus on > objective features of Ruby, not some people's point of view or pet > projects agreed > * Many people are blogging about Ruby. Not all of them deserve to be > on ruby-lang.org. Who picks, and by what criteria? It reeks of > AmIOfficialRubyOrNot.com ok, point taken > * Blogs require devotion, a steady flow of content. Things look stale > when they have an expiration date next to them. There will be enough > things to look after as it is ok, i agree > * Blog content is easier to get in any number of other ways than going > to the home page of a programing language no one said it had to be the home page. =) The thing I like about blogs is that blogs continually changed (except for RubyGarden?), and it makes you want to go back and check them out. But I think blogs could be talked about at a later date once things are farther along if we need to bring in more content. Zach From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Thu Feb 24 16:41:49 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:37:32 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421E4A1D.1050806@infofiend.com> James Britt wrote: > * Blogs by nature are personal voices. ruby-lang.org should focus on > objective features of Ruby, not some people's point of view or pet > projects How about if the "blog" were just: * Announcements of Ruby releases * Announcements of Ruby conferences * Announcements of serious bugs / security issues All with no "author" and no comments? I put the word blog in quotes because I'm not sure that's what most people think of as a blog, but it could be done using a blogging engine. If you look at Why's mockup: http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/rubyorgMockup.html The things in "Latest News" is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I think another option is to have a very limited "PR announcements" style blog on the main page, but have something else somewhere else on the site. It would have more extensive news that wouldn't necessarily be targeted towards newbies and casual users, but towards people who don't follow the mailing list(s). Ben Ben From todd at slack.net Thu Feb 24 16:47:06 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:38:57 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> Message-ID: <20050224214706.GC21933@detroit.slack.net> * Zach Dennis [2005-02-24 16:30]: > > The thing I like about blogs is that blogs continually changed (except > for RubyGarden?), and it makes you want to go back and check them out. > But I think blogs could be talked about at a later date once things are > farther along if we need to bring in more content. This is speaking to what I mentioned a few days ago - user personas - in other words, what types of users will be visiting ruby-lang. I think it will be mostly newcomers, manager-types (hopefully), and the curious. The only likely return visits by regular rubyists is likely to be to pull down a copy of the source, or a shortcut to the online docs. I don't really see a reason for it to be compelling for rubyists to return often - I think php.net is the best example - it centralizes conferences and user groups, and occasional "big" news. It is otherwise totally focused on getting php or learning it (docs). This lowers the need to constantly keep it up to date and "fresh", and avoids political decisions on who gets to say what, and where. Until the reason for the existence of the site is locked down, clearly and explicitly, discussion will go in circles... -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From ruby-lists at lypanov.net Thu Feb 24 16:53:48 2005 From: ruby-lists at lypanov.net (Alexander Kellett) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:49:49 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <20050224214706.GC21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> <20050224214706.GC21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:47 PM, Todd Grimason wrote: > I don't really see a reason for it to be compelling for rubyists to > return often - I think php.net is the best example - it centralizes > conferences and user groups, and occasional "big" news. It is > otherwise totally focused on getting php or learning it (docs). This > lowers the need to constantly keep it up to date and "fresh", and > avoids political decisions on who gets to say what, and where. i visited php.net everyday while coding php, api's aren't just for beginners. i've been coding ruby for 3 years now and still need to look at the reference to various core classes several times a day. at the very least i would be compelled to return frequently. especially if important news would show up. Alex From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 17:00:32 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 16:56:40 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <20050224214706.GC21933@detroit.slack.net> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> <20050224214706.GC21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <5b1d0c60050224140040ccaed@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:47:06 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > * Zach Dennis [2005-02-24 16:30]: > > > > The thing I like about blogs is that blogs continually changed (except > > for RubyGarden?), and it makes you want to go back and check them out. > > But I think blogs could be talked about at a later date once things are > > farther along if we need to bring in more content. > > This is speaking to what I mentioned a few days ago - user personas - > in other words, what types of users will be visiting ruby-lang. I > think it will be mostly newcomers, manager-types (hopefully), and the > curious. The only likely return visits by regular rubyists is likely > to be to pull down a copy of the source, or a shortcut to the online > docs. Agreed. > > I don't really see a reason for it to be compelling for rubyists to > return often - I think php.net is the best example - it centralizes > conferences and user groups, and occasional "big" news. It is > otherwise totally focused on getting php or learning it (docs). This > lowers the need to constantly keep it up to date and "fresh", and > avoids political decisions on who gets to say what, and where. Agreed. > > Until the reason for the existence of the site is locked down, > clearly and explicitly, discussion will go in circles... This nails the issue. Thanks, James From todd at slack.net Thu Feb 24 17:08:12 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Thu Feb 24 17:00:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> <20050224214706.GC21933@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <20050224220812.GD21933@detroit.slack.net> * Alexander Kellett [2005-02-24 16:58]: > On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:47 PM, Todd Grimason wrote: > >I don't really see a reason for it to be compelling for rubyists to > >return often - I think php.net is the best example - it centralizes > >conferences and user groups, and occasional "big" news. It is > >otherwise totally focused on getting php or learning it (docs). This > >lowers the need to constantly keep it up to date and "fresh", and > >avoids political decisions on who gets to say what, and where. > > i visited php.net everyday while coding php, api's > aren't just for beginners. i've been coding ruby > for 3 years now and still need to look at the reference > to various core classes several times a day. Yep, me too - that's why I also said: "The only likely return visits by regular rubyists is likely to be to pull down a copy of the source, or a shortcut to the online docs." I especially like just being to type: http://php.net/strip_tags # or any function/keyword I use that all the time. I'm just saying it doesn't need to be like a daily community hangout. That kind of content is best done (and run) by the community itself. And big news and basic info should be front and center, not the latest entry in the obfuscated contest or a debate over some little corner of the language. > at the very least i would be compelled to return frequently. > especially if important news would show up. Right - like php.net - I think we're saying the same thing, I just gave the wrong impression by saying it doesn't need to "entice" those already using the language. It should of course serve their(our) needs, but since we sorta know where we're going, it doesn't need to be as blatant. -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 17:07:18 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu Feb 24 17:03:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <421E4A1D.1050806@infofiend.com> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> <421E4A1D.1050806@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <5b1d0c60050224140771bebd6e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:41:49 -0500, Ben Giddings wrote: > James Britt wrote: > > * Blogs by nature are personal voices. ruby-lang.org should focus on > > objective features of Ruby, not some people's point of view or pet > > projects > > How about if the "blog" were just: > > * Announcements of Ruby releases > * Announcements of Ruby conferences > * Announcements of serious bugs / security issues This is fine. But this is not what the word "blog" implies. Maybe "announcements" better conveys what they are. > > All with no "author" and no comments? > > I put the word blog in quotes because I'm not sure that's what most > people think of as a blog, but it could be done using a blogging engine. > > If you look at Why's mockup: > > http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/rubyorgMockup.html > > The things in "Latest News" is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Fine, makes sense. Not a blog. James From chad at chadfowler.com Thu Feb 24 18:05:18 2005 From: chad at chadfowler.com (Chad Fowler) Date: Thu Feb 24 18:01:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Blogs Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> References: <5b1d0c6005022413183ecc3549@mail.gmail.com> <421E4675.4060707@mktec.com> Message-ID: On 24-Feb-05, at 4:26 PM, Zach Dennis wrote: > no one said it had to be the home page. =) > > The thing I like about blogs is that blogs continually changed (except > for RubyGarden?), and it makes you want to go back and check them out. > But I think blogs could be talked about at a later date once things > are farther along if we need to bring in more content. > To be fair, RubyGarden isn't trying to be a weblog anymore. It's trying to be a place where bigger, more thought out articles go. I just haven't had a lot of luck getting people to commit to writing them (hint hint) since David and Jamis wrote theirs. Not for lack of trying. Chad From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 04:35:45 2005 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Fri Feb 25 04:31:52 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Logo competition? Message-ID: What are the current thoughts about a logo for the ruby website? If there will be a logo (I want one!), I think a logo competition would be a nice idea. Here are some links to similar happenings: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-advocacy/2004/01/14/0001.html http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/ -- Martin Ankerl | http://martinus.geekisp.com/ From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 25 06:48:17 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 25 06:44:25 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Logo competition? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Martin Ankerl wrote: > > What are the current thoughts about a logo for the ruby website? > If there will be a logo (I want one!), I think a logo competition > would be a nice idea. > > Here are some links to similar happenings: > > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-advocacy/2004/01/14/0001.html > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/ Absolutely, I think there should be one... and I like the idea of a competition! We should announce the competition on ruby-talk so that anyone can participate, and then let the core team pick (so as to be compatible with their design). Let's get the core team in place first (to be announced later today), and then we can kick off the logo competition. Curt From rampant at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 07:23:36 2005 From: rampant at gmail.com (Douglas Livingstone) Date: Fri Feb 25 07:19:43 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Logo competition? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56309446050225042327fdf672@mail.gmail.com> > Absolutely, I think there should be one... and I like the idea of a > competition! We should announce the competition on ruby-talk so that anyone > can participate, and then let the core team pick (so as to be compatible > with their design). > > Let's get the core team in place first (to be announced later today), and > then we can kick off the logo competition. Sounds like the guy in charge knows what he is doing, sounds great Curt :) As I'm sure the three will have some ideas for logos themselves, and they will be implementing the final logo, I'm sure it won't be a problem if they want to combine their ideas and the community's suggestions in the final logo. Douglas From curt at hibbs.com Fri Feb 25 11:37:52 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Feb 25 11:34:01 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] We've got our core team! Message-ID: The original plan was to restrict the core team to three people. But since only four people expressed an interest in being on the team, I'm going to appoint all four of them (I consulted with some of them, and they were unanimously in favor of this). So, with no further ado, our core team is: - Ben Giddings - John Long - Michel Martens - Why the Lucky Stiff Why will be the team leader and has the authority to make decisions when a consensus cannot be reached. I have set up a separate ML for the core team to carry on with their work in peace. I will be subscribing them to this new ML shortly. The core team will periodically ping the rest of us for feedback and opinions. Why said he would expect the first round of show'n'tell to be around March 10th or so. Let's go for it guys! Curt