From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 24 15:56:11 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:56:11 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested Message-ID: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> We are getting really close to launching the new Ruby-Lang Web site and could use your help! Almost all of the technical details are finished and we are polishing the last little bit of content. If you have a minute, zip on over to the new Web site and click around: http://new.ruby-lang.org See something amiss or askew? Let us know. This isn't a time for nit-picking, but if you see something misspelled or believe something to be unclear, speak up! Please keep comments short, positive, and to the point. We've put a lot of work into this and would like to put it live as soon as possible. -- John Long for the Ruby Visual Identity Team From gavin.kistner at anark.com Thu Aug 24 16:24:10 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:24:10 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested Message-ID: > See something amiss or askew? Let us know. This isn't a time for > nit-picking, but if you see something misspelled or believe > something to be unclear, speak up! I'm not sure what's considered 'nit-picking', but here are a few comments. Feel free to disregard if they are inappropriate for the current phase of design/development. 1) Without getting into the (near-religious) design battle of user-scalable width versus designer-locked-down width, I would like to suggest that the implementation of the main column should be based on 'em' width instead of 'px'. When done properly, the width will be the same for the standard font size, but increasing font size will increase the width of the column. This allows users who choose larger font sizes (due to vision or resolution issues) to still read main-column text with more than 3 words per line, while still preserving the designer's choice of a specific words-per-line goal. :) 2) I like that the Firefox website has a huge "DOWNLOAD NOW" button. The most common activity for the site is really, really easy to find. Ruby's homepage should, of course, be about more than downloading Ruby. However, I suspect that the Download action is more common that the current design emphasizes. My suggestion is to (somehow) make that action more prominent than its current (near-hidden) location. Perhaps as simple as a 'download' icon following the "Download Ruby" words. I love the general appearance, the layout, and the grouping of content. I love that _why's Try Ruby is there; that's a really excellent low-barrier way to sell the language. 3) The 'News' section, while great, is little more than a pared down version of the home page. In fact, it offsers LESS content than the home page as far as news is concerned! I suggest that the archive titles be included, in 'digest' mode, at the bottom of the news page. If I want to look for any News about the future of Ruby, I'd like to be able to quickly skim titles, not see the full excerpts. 4) I'd like to see dates on articles like http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/ruby-core/ 5) In IE6 on Windows, going to a new page (like News) causes the background to 'collapse' under content before drawing correctly, while the page loads. (I'm trying to get a screenshot now.) I suspect that a HTML implementation tweak (like a pre-sized 'spacer' div holding the proper content wide) should solve this. 6) I like it when sites visually differentiate links that go off the site versus those that stay on it. With the array of Ruby information spread about (rubyforge, ruby-doc, try ruby) perhaps this isn't a good idea...but if it hasn't been discussed or tried already, I would be interesting in seeing how this might be done subtly. I'm very excited for the new design! If nothing I suggest above occurs, it will still be great work by you all. :) From james at grayproductions.net Thu Aug 24 16:45:09 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:45:09 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E06AEE0-3863-4651-909A-DF3F204CA7B1@grayproductions.net> On Aug 24, 2006, at 3:24 PM, Gavin Kistner wrote: >> See something amiss or askew? Let us know. This isn't a time for >> nit-picking, but if you see something misspelled or believe >> something to be unclear, speak up! > > I'm not sure what's considered 'nit-picking', but here are a few > comments. You bring up great points and had good ideas. > 4) I'd like to see dates on articles like > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/ruby-core/ This is the only point I think I don't agree with. Ideally the information on this pages should always be current and I assume we will get hate mail and soon as it isn't. Ruby moves slow and core conventions even slower. Putting a date on the page could possibly make it look pretty old, just because nothing has changed. My two cents. James Edward Gray II From gavin.kistner at anark.com Thu Aug 24 16:50:22 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:50:22 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested Message-ID: > Ruby moves slow and core conventions even slower. Putting a date on > the page could possibly make it look pretty old, just because > nothing has changed. A good point. I personally hate it when I go read an article online and no date is attached to its release. I assume the argument is as above: "If we never update it, it'll look ancient and stagnant!" So my personal bias is to understand "Hey, some information may not have been updated for 2 years, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong!" Ideally, content reviewers can occasionally look at an article (like the one I cited), say "Yup, it's still valid.", and press a "Reviewed as OK" button in whatever CMS backend may or may not exist. The article would then show: Last Updated: 12/7/2003 Last Reviewed: 7/2/2006 And those young ADD whippersnappers could say "Hrm...OK, that's a recent date, I'm happy." From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 16:52:38 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:52:38 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EE1196.5030303@gmail.com> John W. Long wrote: > We are getting really close to launching the new Ruby-Lang Web site and > could use your help! Almost all of the technical details are finished > and we are polishing the last little bit of content. > > If you have a minute, zip on over to the new Web site and click around: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org > > See something amiss or askew? Let us know. This isn't a time for > nit-picking, but if you see something misspelled or believe something to > be unclear, speak up! Please keep comments short, positive, and to the > point. We've put a lot of work into this and would like to put it live > as soon as possible. > Great work, much thanks to all involved. Main nit: It's not a design issue, but content. The 'community/weblogs/' page scores big by showing people how to find Ruby blogs; it falls down by then suggestion certain blogs as being special. I think a case could be made for mentioning Matz' blog, but that's it. Why (for example) is the Rails blog mentioned? No Nitro blog props? What about the scores of other Ruby apps people use or support? Where's Ruby Code & Style? It's a slippery slope, and I'd prefer not to see any library, group, site, or developer get special mention. (Other than Matz.) Minor nit: On the documentation page, there is a link to ruby-doc.org. The linked word is spelled "RubyDoc". There is a domain, rubydoc.org, that was once run by a Ruby hacker, but it is defunct. To avoid people mis-associating the non-hyphened name with the Ruby documentation site, I'd prefer that references to the site use the hyphen (ruby-doc or Ruby-doc or ruby-doc.org or whatever). Thanks, James Britt (Disclosures: I'm one of the O'Reilly Ruby bloggers, I'm editor-in-chief of Ruby Code & Style, and I run ruby-doc.org) From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 17:02:01 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:02:01 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EE13C9.4020305@gmail.com> Gavin Kistner wrote: > > 1) Without getting into the (near-religious) design battle of > user-scalable width versus designer-locked-down width, I would like to > suggest that the implementation of the main column should be based on > 'em' width instead of 'px'. When done properly, the width will be the > same for the standard font size, but increasing font size will increase > the width of the column. This allows users who choose larger font sizes > (due to vision or resolution issues) to still read main-column text with > more than 3 words per line, while still preserving the designer's choice > of a specific words-per-line goal. :) Good thought. I just did a font resize in FF, and all remained readable, but it looks quite squished because of the fixed width. Maybe not enough to get troubled over, but worth considering a change. > > 2) I like that the Firefox website has a huge "DOWNLOAD NOW" button. The > most common activity for the site is really, really easy to find. Ruby's > homepage should, of course, be about more than downloading Ruby. > However, I suspect that the Download action is more common that the > current design emphasizes. My suggestion is to (somehow) make that > action more prominent than its current (near-hidden) location. Perhaps > as simple as a 'download' icon following the "Download Ruby" words. > Good point. Why not have a banner or link right across the top? > > 4) I'd like to see dates on articles like > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/ruby-core/ Dates are good. Yes, they can make things look, well, dated, but it can be frustrating to read an item, believe it is current, then find out it is old news. -- James Britt "Discover the recipes you are using and abandon them." - Brian Eno and Peter Schmidt, Oblique Strategies From james at grayproductions.net Thu Aug 24 17:02:30 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE1196.5030303@gmail.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <44EE1196.5030303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2006, at 3:52 PM, James Britt wrote: > Minor nit: > > On the documentation page, there is a link to ruby-doc.org. The linked > word is spelled "RubyDoc". There is a domain, rubydoc.org, that was > once run by a Ruby hacker, but it is defunct. To avoid people > mis-associating the non-hyphened name with the Ruby documentation > site, > I'd prefer that references to the site use the hyphen (ruby-doc or > Ruby-doc or ruby-doc.org or whatever). Thank you for pointing this out. I have changed the link to Ruby-doc. James Edward Gray II From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 17:08:05 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:08:05 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <44EE1196.5030303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EE1535.7040201@gmail.com> James Edward Gray II wrote: > > Thank you for pointing this out. I have changed the link to Ruby-doc. Thanks! James From mfp at acm.org Thu Aug 24 17:11:08 2006 From: mfp at acm.org (Mauricio Fernandez) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:11:08 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <20060824211108.GA6961@tux-chan> Hi, On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 03:56:11PM -0400, John W. Long wrote: > We are getting really close to launching the new Ruby-Lang Web site and > could use your help! Almost all of the technical details are finished > and we are polishing the last little bit of content. > > If you have a minute, zip on over to the new Web site and click around: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org > > See something amiss or askew? Let us know. This isn't a time for > nit-picking, but if you see something misspelled or believe something to > be unclear, speak up! Please keep comments short, positive, and to the > point. We've put a lot of work into this and would like to put it live > as soon as possible. I found a couple inaccurate explanations on http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/ruby-from-other-languages/ Methods [...] Ruby differs slightly. public is, naturally, public. private means the method(s) are accessible to a class's and its ancestors' instances. ========================================================= This seems unclear or confusing at worst. ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ especially this Only self is allowed to be the receiver of a private method call. Based on this, somebody could expect self.some_private_method to work, so the explanation should probably be reworded to mention the "no explicit received allowed" rule [1]. Also, the example given below is ambiguous. One can easily believe that other.func is failing, when actually self.func won't work once #func is made private: def ==(other) self.func == other.func end Also saw a small braino: Operators are syntactic sugar [...] The methods below are not syntactic sugar, though. They are not methods, ======= operators and cannot be redefined: [...] This made me chuckle http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/ruby-from-other-languages/to-ruby-from-c-and-c-/ [...] Similarities with C As with C, in Ruby,... * the language is strongly typed. (C isn't). Feel free to ignore these observations if you don't see much value in them. I guess there are still a few typos/brainos to be found, but reporting them via this ML to have them fixed by somebody else looks like way too much work for all parties involved. Are you planning to provide some more convenient way to give feedback (such as third-party modifications that can be approved by the admins, or a similar mechanism)? If not, what must one do to get the "typo corrector" access bit? [On a related issue, where will the contents come from, esp. news and such? Any plans yet?] [1] This can probably be skipped, but if the exception regarding foo= methods is mentioned, an example like this might help: class X def a=(x); x end private :a= def foo; self.a = 2 end end X.new.foo # => 2 X.new.a = 1 # ~> -:8: private method `a=' called for # (NoMethodError) -- Mauricio Fernandez - http://eigenclass.org - singular Ruby From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Thu Aug 24 17:24:26 2006 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:24:26 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE1196.5030303@gmail.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <44EE1196.5030303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060824212425.GC94410@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 01:52:38PM -0700, James Britt wrote: > It's a slippery slope, and I'd prefer not to see any library, group, > site, or developer get special mention. (Other than Matz.) I'm the editor of the weblog page, which is definitely a tough page, given the volume of blogs and the personal nature of it. Which is why I started off with a few popular channels for finding blogs. Perhaps I could tone down the second section. It's not an awards show, it just offers some examples of popular, active blogs. _why From david.heinemeier at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 17:42:44 2006 From: david.heinemeier at gmail.com (David Heinemeier Hansson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:42:44 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? Message-ID: Hi guys, Fantastic work on the new site. I love the look of it. Can't wait to have it be online. On a small note, I was curious to know what the algorithm for filtering the Top Ruby Projects was? It seems that its using http://rubyforge.org/top/toplist.php?type=downloads, which is a fine thing to do, but I was surprised to see #3 Rails and #4 Instant Rails filtered out from the highlights. -- David Heinemeier Hansson http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain http://www.basecamphq.com -- Online project management http://www.backpackit.com -- Personal information manager http://www.rubyonrails.com -- Web-application framework From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 24 17:59:18 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:59:18 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> David Heinemeier Hansson wrote: > Fantastic work on the new site. I love the look of it. Can't wait to > have it be online. > > On a small note, I was curious to know what the algorithm for > filtering the Top Ruby Projects was? Good question. It's a list I copied from Ruby-Forge a couple of months ago. Perhaps I should update it. :-) > It seems that its using > http://rubyforge.org/top/toplist.php?type=downloads, which is a fine > thing to do, but I was surprised to see #3 Rails and #4 Instant Rails > filtered out from the highlights. I think this was because in the original design we had a Rails related advertisement on the home page. There is not one there now though, so maybe we should change it. I'm trying to see what it would take to have this information automatically updated. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From james at grayproductions.net Thu Aug 24 18:35:11 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:35:11 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <20060824211108.GA6961@tux-chan> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <20060824211108.GA6961@tux-chan> Message-ID: <49726151-54FD-4AD2-83AC-06B344EF15B9@grayproductions.net> On Aug 24, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Mauricio Fernandez wrote: > I found a couple inaccurate explanations on > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/ruby-from-other-languages/ > > Methods > > [...] > > Ruby differs slightly. public is, naturally, public. private > means the > method(s) are accessible to a class's and its ancestors' > instances. > > ========================================================= > This seems unclear or confusing at worst. ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ > especially this > > Only self is allowed to be the receiver of a private method > call. > > Based on this, somebody could expect > > self.some_private_method > > to work, so the explanation should probably be reworded to mention > the "no > explicit received allowed" rule [1]. Also, the example given below is > ambiguous. One can easily believe that other.func is failing, when > actually > self.func won't work once #func is made private: > > def ==(other) > self.func == other.func > end > > > Also saw a small braino: > > Operators are syntactic sugar > [...] > > The methods below are not syntactic sugar, though. They are not > methods, > ======= > operators > and cannot be redefined: > [...] > > > > This made me chuckle > > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/ruby-from-other- > languages/to-ruby-from-c-and-c-/ > > [...] > Similarities with C > As with C, in Ruby,... > > * the language is strongly typed. > > (C isn't). I believe I fixed all of those. James Edward Gray II From chiology at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 18:45:58 2006 From: chiology at gmail.com (Matt Todd) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:45:58 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] This This Message-ID: <2a8d4a710608241545i284b75cdmd0ba6ed532b65452@mail.gmail.com> > Please contact our webmaster for questions or comments concerning this this website. I believe there is one too many _this_es in that sentence. Cheers! M.T. P.S. -- Sorry, I just signed up so I missed the majority of the discussions, and this may well have been mentioned before. From james at grayproductions.net Thu Aug 24 18:55:29 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:55:29 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] This This In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608241545i284b75cdmd0ba6ed532b65452@mail.gmail.com> References: <2a8d4a710608241545i284b75cdmd0ba6ed532b65452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2006, at 5:45 PM, Matt Todd wrote: >> Please contact our webmaster for questions or comments concerning >> this this website. > > I believe there is one too many _this_es in that sentence. Got it. Thanks. James Edward Gray II From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 02:01:40 2006 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:01:40 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: Hi, excellent work! * I don't know why, but the logo is not always clickable In Opera it works flawlessly, but in firefox and in KDE's browser there is a problem. It seems to me that at exactly the same height as the search box the logo is not clickable, above and below the link works. I have no idea why... * The subpage "Community" does not use the same stylesheet as the other text, e.g. the headers are not red. * Please add a favicion.ico :-) just convert the diamond to a 16x16 icon -- Martin Ankerl | http://martin.ankerl.org From chneukirchen at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 08:54:27 2006 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:54:27 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> (John W. Long's message of "Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:56:11 -0400") References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: "John W. Long" writes: > We are getting really close to launching the new Ruby-Lang Web site and > could use your help! Almost all of the technical details are finished > and we are polishing the last little bit of content. > > If you have a minute, zip on over to the new Web site and click around: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org > > See something amiss or askew? Let us know. http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/libraries/ should mention RubyForge, no? -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 09:58:01 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:58:01 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EF01E9.3040000@johnwlong.com> Martin Ankerl wrote: > Hi, excellent work! > > * I don't know why, but the logo is not always clickable In Opera it > works flawlessly, but in firefox and in KDE's browser there is a > problem. It seems to me that at exactly the same height as the search > box the logo is not clickable, above and below the link works. I have > no idea why... Good catch. It's a bug. And yes it does have something to do with the search box. I'll see what I can do... > * The subpage "Community" does not use the same stylesheet as the > other text, e.g. the headers are not red. Actually, one is using h2s and the other h3s. But you are right, it does seem a little inconsistent. > * Please add a favicion.ico :-) just convert the diamond to a 16x16 icon All in good time... :-) -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 10:05:04 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:05:04 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> John W. Long wrote: > > I'm trying to see what it would take to have this information > automatically updated. Nit: What user problem does this information solve? (One issue I have with lists of what's popular is that they can be re-enforcing, to the exclusion of other , maybe better, options.) I'd rather see more space made on the home page for a "Download Here" widget thing than clutter the main page with RubyForge trivia. (Other nit: "Top Ruby Projects" is really "Most downloaded from the rubyforge.org site". That probably equates to "most popular projects" for most cases, but does nothing to account for anything that may be hosted elsewhere.) -- James Britt http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - The Journal By & For Rubyists http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Fri Aug 25 11:54:13 2006 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:54:13 +0100 (WEST) Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, John W. Long wrote: > If you have a minute, zip on over to the new Web site and click around: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org > I've raised some of this before, but it was not on this list, so I hope people will bear with the repetition. I like the site in general, the layout is nice, and the choice of colours is generally good. I'd like to see a couple of alternate stylesheets for people with low vision. I've grabbed the existing stylesheets, and there is a lot in there, and frankly I'm a bit lost as to what to patch. I don't edit CSS stuff often enough to be fluent in it, so I apologize for not providing patches. Here's what I'd like to see if it's feasible: The sidebars are blue on blue, which is too low contrast for me to read comfortably. I'd suggest deep red, maybe going to a lighter red on hover. The central code example on the main page has this problem, but I'd definitely agree that picking a syntax highlight scheme that suits everyone is, well, "nontrivial" to say the least. The point about scaling with large print has already been made. The class="post-info" is clearly intended to be meta-information people don't really need to know, but can make the visual effort to get by reading the low contrast text. In the low vision version(s?) I'd just keep that as the same contrast as the main text. There are people who find glare very painful. Having a stylesheet with light text on a dark background for the main body of the text would be most welcome for them. Could the search box have a thicker border, because with the present white on cream with a thin border it's really only nocticeable because of the search button. Most of the fonts on the pages seem to be sans-serif. This is good for many forms of low vision, and dyslexic people have told me they like that style also. Maybe the titles could be in such a font, but bigger and bold in the alternate stylesheets? Sorry to bring up such a lot of detail but hopefully this need only apply to the alternate style sheets, and thus needn't happen yesterday ;-). Anyway, I hope these are useful points, and won't be considered as adverse criticism. One can only deal with what one knows, so having room for improvement for low vision users is understandable; I have not attempted to address issues that would affect those browsing with speech and braille, because I don't use those modes of access. Thank you, Hugh From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 13:58:45 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:28:45 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/25/06, James Britt wrote: > > (One issue I have with lists of what's popular is that they can be > re-enforcing, to the exclusion of other , maybe better, options.) > > I'd rather see more space made on the home page for a "Download Here" > widget thing than clutter the main page with RubyForge trivia. Agreed. I suggest replacing the "top" list with a weekly project spotlight; I'm sure there are no shortage of people in the community willing to write introductory reviews of their favourite projects. I'll even volunteer to do the first four myself, if you like the idea. martin From pat.eyler at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 14:08:48 2006 From: pat.eyler at gmail.com (pat eyler) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:08:48 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6fd0654b0608251108x4c264614wbce47f3f2461bebd@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/06, Martin DeMello wrote: > On 8/25/06, James Britt wrote: > > I'd rather see more space made on the home page for a "Download Here" > > widget thing than clutter the main page with RubyForge trivia. > > Agreed. I suggest replacing the "top" list with a weekly project > spotlight; I'm sure there are no shortage of people in the community > willing to write introductory reviews of their favourite projects. > I'll even volunteer to do the first four myself, if you like the idea. I think this is a great idea. I'd also love to see coverage of projects outside of Rails. Nothing against Rails, but the Ruby community is being pigeon-holed by publishers (and others) as "just about Rails" and we need to break that stereotype. > > martin -- thanks, -pate ------------------------- http://on-ruby.blogspot.com From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 14:52:10 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Martin DeMello wrote: > On 8/25/06, James Britt wrote: >> >> (One issue I have with lists of what's popular is that they can be >> re-enforcing, to the exclusion of other , maybe better, options.) >> >> I'd rather see more space made on the home page for a "Download Here" >> widget thing than clutter the main page with RubyForge trivia. > > Agreed. I suggest replacing the "top" list with a weekly project > spotlight; I'm sure there are no shortage of people in the community > willing to write introductory reviews of their favourite projects. > I'll even volunteer to do the first four myself, if you like the idea. I think this sounds like a great idea. I would be happy to pen some myself. James Edward Gray II From gavin.kistner at anark.com Fri Aug 25 14:56:27 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:56:27 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? Message-ID: Oh, the weekly project spotlight brings to mind a (possible) feature-creep idea I had: Instead of having the "hello world" code sample be static, can we develop a number of "language highlight" snippets that fit in that box, to be displayed randomly? Hello World could be weighted more heavily, but it seems like a boring sample to always display. From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 15:08:55 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:08:55 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Gavin Kistner wrote: > Oh, the weekly project spotlight brings to mind a (possible) > feature-creep idea I had: > > Instead of having the "hello world" code sample be static, can we > develop a number of "language highlight" snippets that fit in that > box, > to be displayed randomly? Hello World could be weighted more heavily, > but it seems like a boring sample to always display. There are a few snippets than can appear in that box. They can change about every five minutes, if memory serves (due to caching). James Edward Gray II From gavin.kistner at anark.com Fri Aug 25 15:10:14 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:10:14 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? Message-ID: > There are a few snippets than can appear in that box. They can > change about every five minutes, if memory serves (due to caching). Excellent. :) From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 15:32:00 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:32:00 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> Gavin Kistner wrote: >> There are a few snippets than can appear in that box. They can >> change about every five minutes, if memory serves (due to caching). > > Excellent. :) We currently have the following: Hello World 1: # The Greeter class class Greeter def initialize(name) @name = name.capitalize end def salute puts "Hello #{@name}!" end end # Create a new object g = Greeter.new("world") # Output "Hello World!" g.salute Hello World 2: # The famous Hello World # program is trivial in # Ruby. You don't need: # # * a "main" method # * newline escapes # * semicolons # # Here's the code: puts "Hello World!" I Love Ruby: # Output "I *love* Ruby" say = "I love Ruby" puts say # Output "I *LOVE* RUBY" say['love'] = "*love*" puts say.upcase # Output "I *love* Ruby" # five times 5.times { puts say } Suggestions? -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From gavin.kistner at anark.com Fri Aug 25 15:34:36 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:34:36 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? Message-ID: > I Love Ruby: > # Output "I *love* Ruby" > say = "I love Ruby" > puts say [...] > Suggestions? Er...perhaps fix the comment above. :) From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 15:37:56 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 01:07:56 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, John W. Long wrote: > > Suggestions? a = "Goodbye cruel world" a["Goodbye cruel"] = "Hello" puts a martin From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 15:44:03 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:44:03 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> On Aug 25, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Martin DeMello wrote: > On 8/26/06, John W. Long wrote: >> >> Suggestions? > > a = "Goodbye cruel world" > a["Goodbye cruel"] = "Hello" > puts a But isn't that just what we already have? James Edward Gray II From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 15:50:07 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 01:20:07 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, James Edward Gray II wrote: > On Aug 25, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Martin DeMello wrote: > > > On 8/26/06, John W. Long wrote: > >> > >> Suggestions? > > > > a = "Goodbye cruel world" > > a["Goodbye cruel"] = "Hello" > > puts a > > But isn't that just what we already have? Oops - missed that. Sorry for the noise. a = 1 2.upto(1000) {|i| a = a * i} puts a martin From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Aug 25 16:02:48 2006 From: zdennis at mktec.com (zdennis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EF5768.30303@mktec.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Gavin Kistner wrote: > Oh, the weekly project spotlight brings to mind a (possible) > feature-creep idea I had: > > Instead of having the "hello world" code sample be static, can we > develop a number of "language highlight" snippets that fit in that box, > to be displayed randomly? Hello World could be weighted more heavily, > but it seems like a boring sample to always display. That is a great idea Gavin! Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE71doMyx0fW1d8G0RAnjiAJ4o5tcsdPdNOqgZtIvdD7xCn4C4BQCfWggM ZdKpQc5eVw3RO1bGc6LvxsI= =/w59 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Aug 25 16:06:58 2006 From: zdennis at mktec.com (zdennis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:06:58 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The sum example with inject IMO is great... numbers = 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 sum = numbers.inject( 0 ){ |sum,n| sum+=n } puts "The sum is #{sum}!" Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE71hiMyx0fW1d8G0RAsg4AJ9jWvjTMOV7FUrPrJ0/VTbRA1JgrQCfXIJp 1S0kyiHFOSl3ENGAsna8FjE= =iKCM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From xtoddx at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 16:10:42 2006 From: xtoddx at gmail.com (Todd Willey) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:10:42 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: <13f42dd60608251310o6c160cfbm65b323ce992e3998@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/06, Martin DeMello wrote: > On 8/26/06, James Edward Gray II wrote: > > On Aug 25, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Martin DeMello wrote: > > > > > On 8/26/06, John W. Long wrote: > > >> > > >> Suggestions? > > > > > > a = "Goodbye cruel world" > > > a["Goodbye cruel"] = "Hello" > > > puts a > > > > But isn't that just what we already have? > > Oops - missed that. Sorry for the noise. > > a = 1 > 2.upto(1000) {|i| a = a * i} > puts a why not: puts (2...1000).inject(1){|fact,current| fact * current} > > martin > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From xtoddx at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 16:12:49 2006 From: xtoddx at gmail.com (Todd Willey) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:12:49 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> Message-ID: <13f42dd60608251312i44af57f0x7c9f73807cf71ff1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/06, zdennis wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > The sum example with inject IMO is great... > > numbers = 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 > sum = numbers.inject( 0 ){ |sum,n| sum+=n } > puts "The sum is #{sum}!" You don't need assignment when doing inject. so sum + n is sufficient. > > Zach > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFE71hiMyx0fW1d8G0RAsg4AJ9jWvjTMOV7FUrPrJ0/VTbRA1JgrQCfXIJp > 1S0kyiHFOSl3ENGAsna8FjE= > =iKCM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 16:13:34 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:13:34 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> Message-ID: <44EF59EE.8060404@johnwlong.com> zdennis wrote: > The sum example with inject IMO is great... > > numbers = 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 > sum = numbers.inject( 0 ){ |sum,n| sum+=n } > puts "The sum is #{sum}!" Maybe a little too cryptic? Keep in mind this example might be the first example someone ever sees of Ruby. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Aug 25 16:14:20 2006 From: zdennis at mktec.com (zdennis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <13f42dd60608251310o6c160cfbm65b323ce992e3998@mail.gmail.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> <13f42dd60608251310o6c160cfbm65b323ce992e3998@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EF5A1C.6050708@mktec.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Todd Willey wrote: > On 8/25/06, Martin DeMello wrote: >> On 8/26/06, James Edward Gray II wrote: >>> On Aug 25, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Martin DeMello wrote: >>> >>>> On 8/26/06, John W. Long wrote: >>>>> Suggestions? >>>> a = "Goodbye cruel world" >>>> a["Goodbye cruel"] = "Hello" >>>> puts a >>> But isn't that just what we already have? >> Oops - missed that. Sorry for the noise. >> >> a = 1 >> 2.upto(1000) {|i| a = a * i} >> puts a > > why not: > puts (2...1000).inject(1){|fact,current| fact * current} I would be explicit if this goes on the site. fact => factorial, and make it span two lines if it gets too long. I think it makes it more readable to what the code is doing, and it leads people in the direction of determining the cleverness of the code. Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE71ocMyx0fW1d8G0RAo5fAJ9Rz1Ozw+JCFZy9VCshYQtXdpNc8gCff5My 0L1VyNhhc+KxS5ts8a6u4gI= =p9bU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 16:20:11 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 01:50:11 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <13f42dd60608251310o6c160cfbm65b323ce992e3998@mail.gmail.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> <13f42dd60608251310o6c160cfbm65b323ce992e3998@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, Todd Willey wrote: > On 8/25/06, Martin DeMello wrote: > > > > a = 1 > > 2.upto(1000) {|i| a = a * i} > > puts a > > why not: > puts (2...1000).inject(1){|fact,current| fact * current} Because the snippet is intended to show off 1: The "reads-like-English" method a.upto(b) 2: The fact that ruby transparently handles Bignums "inject" is somewhat obscure; most newcomers won't take the time to puzzle out the snippet but simply dismiss it as some weird language construct. In general, the snippets should focus on neat ruby features that are generally unavailable in other languages, but which are readable without having to be familiar with the language. Array difference might be another good candidate: cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) puts "I still need to visit the following cities: " + (cities - visited).join(",") martin From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Aug 25 16:22:08 2006 From: zdennis at mktec.com (zdennis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:22:08 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF59EE.8060404@johnwlong.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> <44EF59EE.8060404@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EF5BF0.5080805@mktec.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John W. Long wrote: > zdennis wrote: >> The sum example with inject IMO is great... >> >> numbers = 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 >> sum = numbers.inject( 0 ){ |sum,n| sum+=n } >> puts "The sum is #{sum}!" > > Maybe a little too cryptic? Yes it could be. > Keep in mind this example might be the first > example someone ever sees of Ruby. It may be a clearly clever example of some things in ruby. I can see why it wouldn't go on the main page, and I can also see why it might go on the main page. At first glance it spells out you're summing numbers. At second glance you want to determine how since it is like none other you've seen before it. And then finally you take 15 seconds and your brain figures it out. It may be a rewarding experience for people visiting the site. Perhaps weighting the Hello will help offset how many times the more clever code snippets show up, but I think if the site caters to all types of users not just noobs it will be good for all people to revisit the site on a regular basis to see whats new. (Perhaps if the ip address has been logged before it will go to more clever code, otherwise it will stick to the Hello like snippets). of course this is all just opinion, and if it doesn't pass the test, then i'm ok with that decision. I think the work you guys are doing is great and I realize that not everyone's opinion is going to make the cut. (but I've got $20 if mine does. haha ;) Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE71vwMyx0fW1d8G0RAmKRAJ99ynvMh7TqA9IVOi2J40yCEckdHQCbBbNx yu9PR9UpDSTmhgHjoP4RoM0= =Vovd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Aug 25 16:22:25 2006 From: zdennis at mktec.com (zdennis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:22:25 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <13f42dd60608251312i44af57f0x7c9f73807cf71ff1@mail.gmail.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <47487E1B-A5AA-4D87-B57E-63D9A26B0B6D@grayproductions.net> <44EF5862.9010105@mktec.com> <13f42dd60608251312i44af57f0x7c9f73807cf71ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EF5C01.6050600@mktec.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Todd Willey wrote: > On 8/25/06, zdennis wrote: > The sum example with inject IMO is great... > > numbers = 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 > sum = numbers.inject( 0 ){ |sum,n| sum+=n } > puts "The sum is #{sum}!" > >> You don't need assignment when doing inject. >> so sum + n is sufficient. You are correct. Thanks Todd, Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE71wBMyx0fW1d8G0RAuUBAJ4noNvQj6lqGMSSM0bOPHhuw3NuLgCfblqD r8rFwHYQ0LCxzAkZ+8mLzLE= =rBG3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gavin.kistner at anark.com Fri Aug 25 16:31:56 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:31:56 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? Message-ID: > Array difference might be another good candidate: > > cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) > visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) > puts "I still need to visit the following cities: " + (cities - > visited).join(",") I like that, but (for brevity) I might change it to: cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) puts "I still need to visit the following cities:", (cities - visited) The output isn't the same (of course), but it's moderately reasonable, and makes the language look a little simpler, IMHO. From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 16:35:19 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:05:19 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/26/06, Gavin Kistner wrote: > > Array difference might be another good candidate: > > > > cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) > > visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) > > puts "I still need to visit the following cities: " + (cities - > > visited).join(",") > > I like that, but (for brevity) I might change it to: > cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) > visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) > puts "I still need to visit the following cities:", (cities - visited) Good point! The join is just clutter there. martin From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 16:42:06 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:42:06 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> Martin DeMello wrote: > Agreed. I suggest replacing the "top" list with a weekly project > spotlight; I'm sure there are no shortage of people in the community > willing to write introductory reviews of their favourite projects. > I'll even volunteer to do the first four myself, if you like the idea. Instead of picking the top 5 what if I coded the algorithm to take the top 30 and pick 5 at random from that list? We could also pull the list from the most active projects, but that list seems to favor projects that are updated a lot, which would mean that unstable projects would appear more frequently. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 16:48:20 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:18:20 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, John W. Long wrote: > Martin DeMello wrote: > > Agreed. I suggest replacing the "top" list with a weekly project > > spotlight; I'm sure there are no shortage of people in the community > > willing to write introductory reviews of their favourite projects. > > I'll even volunteer to do the first four myself, if you like the idea. > > Instead of picking the top 5 what if I coded the algorithm to take the > top 30 and pick 5 at random from that list? > > We could also pull the list from the most active projects, but that list > seems to favor projects that are updated a lot, which would mean that > unstable projects would appear more frequently. I prefer the spotlight idea because it means that some actual human being has been enthusiastic enough about the project to want to share his discovery of it with the world. On the other hand, the top projects idea does seem to be optimised for first-time and one-time visitors to the page, which is likely to be the overwhelming scenario. And top downloads from rubyforge is a very real measure of how useful people are finding the library. I guess what I'm saying is that I won't complain either way, though my offer to write a few spotlight posts if you do decide to have them stands :) martin From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Aug 25 16:59:03 2006 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:59:03 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <20060825205903.GE75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 03:32:00PM -0400, John W. Long wrote: > Suggestions? Some short list samples would be nice: >> [14, 37, 25].max => 37 >> ['www', 'ruby-lang', org'] * '.' => 'www.ruby-lang.org' >> ['donkeys', 'trucks', 'spades'].include? 'monkey' => false Or reading over HTTP: # Ruby comes with OpenURI, a library for reading # files over the web easily. Watch: >> require 'open-uri' >> open("http://ruby-lang.org/en/license.txt") do |file| .. puts file.read .. end Or a little Builder demo: # Builder, a library offered for Ruby, lets # you describe RSS in ordinary Ruby! >> feed.rss :version => '2.0' do .. feed.title 'The Ruby Homepage' .. feed.link 'http://www.ruby-lang.org' .. feed.item {} .. end You know, since many people visiting the site may be interested in how to generate RSS. It might even be cool if each of the rotating examples had a brief (six paragraph or so, like you'd see on a blog) tutorial getting into more detail. _why From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 16:57:00 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:57:00 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EF641C.9070500@johnwlong.com> Martin DeMello wrote: > On the other hand, the top projects idea does seem to be optimised for > first-time and one-time visitors to the page, which is likely to be > the overwhelming scenario. And top downloads from rubyforge is a very > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. I think you've pegged why I like the top projects idea. And while I can see the value of spotlight blurbs, I think I favor automation over manual entry for something like this. Does the top 30/5 idea sound acceptable to everyone? -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From pat.eyler at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 17:17:49 2006 From: pat.eyler at gmail.com (pat eyler) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:17:49 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF641C.9070500@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF641C.9070500@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <6fd0654b0608251417u52eb103bv2d27fd183a9376a9@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/06, John W. Long wrote: > Does the top 30/5 idea sound acceptable to everyone? Sounds good to me > > -- > John Long > http://wiseheartdesign.com > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > -- thanks, -pate ------------------------- http://on-ruby.blogspot.com From pat.eyler at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 17:20:07 2006 From: pat.eyler at gmail.com (pat eyler) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:20:07 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF641C.9070500@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF641C.9070500@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <6fd0654b0608251420p115c9a26s5f8233723b8d0877@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/06, John W. Long wrote: > Martin DeMello wrote: > > On the other hand, the top projects idea does seem to be optimised for > > first-time and one-time visitors to the page, which is likely to be > > the overwhelming scenario. And top downloads from rubyforge is a very > > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. > > I think you've pegged why I like the top projects idea. And while I can > see the value of spotlight blurbs, I think I favor automation over > manual entry for something like this. > Since it doesn't look like this is going to go on the ruby-lang home page, I'd be happy to post one of these a week on the O'Reilly Ruby blog if people wanted to send them to me. (To avoid a nasty queue, please drop me an email before sending in a write up -- I'll try to keep two or three on hand, and will take new ones as my stockpile drains.) > > -- > John Long > http://wiseheartdesign.com -- thanks, -pate ------------------------- http://on-ruby.blogspot.com From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 17:46:07 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:46:07 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> Martin DeMello wrote: > > On the other hand, the top projects idea does seem to be optimised for > first-time and one-time visitors to the page, which is likely to be > the overwhelming scenario. Optimized for what? Because first and one-time visitors come there to find a list of (some of) the most-downloaded RubyForge projects? How do you know that usage by this group constitutes an "overwhelming scenario", and is optimizing that page for first- and one-timers a proper goal? > And top downloads from rubyforge is a very > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. No it's not. It's a very real measure of how often something has been downloaded. Beyond that, it's guessing. -- James Britt "I never dispute another person's delusions, just their facts." - Len Bullard From martindemello at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 17:50:11 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 03:20:11 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, James Britt wrote: > Martin DeMello wrote: > > > On the other hand, the top projects idea does seem to be optimised for > > first-time and one-time visitors to the page, which is likely to be > > the overwhelming scenario. > > Optimized for what? Because first and one-time visitors come there to > find a list of (some of) the most-downloaded RubyForge projects? Optimised for letting a casual passerby know what some of the popular things people are using ruby for are. > How do you know that usage by this group constitutes an "overwhelming > scenario", and is optimizing that page for first- and one-timers a > proper goal? Just a guess, but I don't really see anything in the ruby front page that will encourage repeat visits by an established rubyist. > > And top downloads from rubyforge is a very > > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. > > No it's not. It's a very real measure of how often something has been > downloaded. Beyond that, it's guessing. Granted, but if we *are* going to do an automated list of popular projects I can't think of a better way to do it. martin From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 17:58:59 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:58:59 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EF72A3.7020009@johnwlong.com> James Britt wrote: > > And top downloads from rubyforge is a very > > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. > > No it's not. It's a very real measure of how often something has been > downloaded. Beyond that, it's guessing. It's not a precise measurement, but given the choice of inputs it's about the best source for an automated solution that we can get. Or perhaps there is another source? -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 18:39:16 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:39:16 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF72A3.7020009@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> <44EF72A3.7020009@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44EF7C14.9080601@gmail.com> John W. Long wrote: > James Britt wrote: > >> > And top downloads from rubyforge is a very >> > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. >> >>No it's not. It's a very real measure of how often something has been >>downloaded. Beyond that, it's guessing. > > > It's not a precise measurement, but given the choice of inputs it's > about the best source for an automated solution that we can get. Or > perhaps there is another source? That's begging the question. It isn't clear to me (nor is this a big deal) that this solves an actual user problem or need. James Britt From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 18:48:39 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:48:39 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EF7E47.5000407@gmail.com> Martin DeMello wrote: > On 8/26/06, James Britt wrote: > >>Martin DeMello wrote: >> >> >>>On the other hand, the top projects idea does seem to be optimised for >>>first-time and one-time visitors to the page, which is likely to be >>>the overwhelming scenario. >> >>Optimized for what? Because first and one-time visitors come there to >>find a list of (some of) the most-downloaded RubyForge projects? > > > Optimised for letting a casual passerby know what some of the popular > things people are using ruby for are. I don't see that knowing that Rails and 1-click installer are the most-oft download packages tells anyone what people are actual using Ruby for. Real-world stories might better serve that goal. > > >>How do you know that usage by this group constitutes an "overwhelming >>scenario", and is optimizing that page for first- and one-timers a >>proper goal? > > > Just a guess, but I don't really see anything in the ruby front page > that will encourage repeat visits by an established rubyist. > But that is by choice. It seems tautological to say that since the site seems to favor newcomers, then what goes into the site should be focused on newcomers. > >> > And top downloads from rubyforge is a very >> > real measure of how useful people are finding the library. >> >>No it's not. It's a very real measure of how often something has been >>downloaded. Beyond that, it's guessing. > > > Granted, but if we *are* going to do an automated list of popular > projects I can't think of a better way to do it. Yes. My questions are: who are the target audience, what are their needs, and does a list of what's most-downloaded make the best use of screen space to address those needs? James Britt From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 18:57:36 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:57:36 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <01761DF3-3EB5-4FF3-9074-F7A779E941CF@grayproductions.net> On Aug 25, 2006, at 7:54 AM, Christian Neukirchen wrote: > "John W. Long" writes: > >> We are getting really close to launching the new Ruby-Lang Web >> site and >> could use your help! Almost all of the technical details are finished >> and we are polishing the last little bit of content. >> >> If you have a minute, zip on over to the new Web site and click >> around: >> >> http://new.ruby-lang.org >> >> See something amiss or askew? Let us know. > > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/libraries/ should mention RubyForge, no? This page is ancient and could probably benefit from the kind of cleanup Why has been doing about the site, but I have at least added the link. James Edward Gray II From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Aug 25 19:51:39 2006 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:51:39 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF7C14.9080601@gmail.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> <44EF72A3.7020009@johnwlong.com> <44EF7C14.9080601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060825235139.GF75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 03:39:16PM -0700, James Britt wrote: > It isn't clear to me (nor is this a big deal) that this solves an actual > user problem or need. Well, libraries are generally considered Ruby's weak point. That we don't have CPAN or that our libraries are shambles. We want to do all we can to counterattack that prevailing notion. We want to demonstrate that we have a wealth of libraries, useful and widespread, with an entire system for distributing them and announcing them. Whoa, Ruby has that! The presence of good libraries is probably amoung the top five reasons someone picks a language, maybe? For some, it's first even. Regardless, it can break the whole empire. Let's show off some libraries and let's keep talking about how we can really drive the point, you know? I'll hit the libraries page tomorrow and try out a few ideas. You'll hear from me again. _why From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 20:39:58 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:39:58 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2006, at 2:34 PM, Gavin Kistner wrote: >> I Love Ruby: >> # Output "I *love* Ruby" >> say = "I love Ruby" >> puts say > [...] >> Suggestions? > > Er...perhaps fix the comment above. :) Fixed. James Edward Gray II From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 20:46:21 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:46:21 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <638BE351-437A-4D00-9607-14947C112890@grayproductions.net> On Aug 25, 2006, at 3:31 PM, Gavin Kistner wrote: >> Array difference might be another good candidate: >> >> cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) >> visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) >> puts "I still need to visit the following cities: " + (cities - >> visited).join(",") > > I like that, but (for brevity) I might change it to: > cities = %w(London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin) > visited = %w(Berlin Oslo) > puts "I still need to visit the following cities:", (cities - visited) > > The output isn't the same (of course), but it's moderately reasonable, > and makes the language look a little simpler, IMHO. I've added this one, since we all seemed to like it. James Edward Gray II From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 20:58:37 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:58:37 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <20060825205903.GE75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <20060825205903.GE75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> Message-ID: <2597AC2C-DD97-42F8-9374-E9148654D628@grayproductions.net> On Aug 25, 2006, at 3:59 PM, why the lucky stiff wrote: > On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 03:32:00PM -0400, John W. Long wrote: >> Suggestions? > > Some short list samples would be nice: > >>> [14, 37, 25].max > => 37 >>> ['www', 'ruby-lang', org'] * '.' > => 'www.ruby-lang.org' >>> ['donkeys', 'trucks', 'spades'].include? 'monkey' > => false > > Or reading over HTTP: > > # Ruby comes with OpenURI, a library for reading > # files over the web easily. Watch: >>> require 'open-uri' >>> open("http://ruby-lang.org/en/license.txt") do |file| > .. puts file.read > .. end > > Or a little Builder demo: > > # Builder, a library offered for Ruby, lets > # you describe RSS in ordinary Ruby! >>> feed.rss :version => '2.0' do > .. feed.title 'The Ruby Homepage' > .. feed.link 'http://www.ruby-lang.org' > .. feed.item {} > .. end The biggest problem with most ideas people are showing is space. It's a very, very small box. Here's what I had to use to get the latest snippet to fit: # Ruby knows what you # mean, even if you # want to do math on # an entire Array cities = %w[ London Oslo Paris Amsterdam Berlin ] visited = %w[Berlin Oslo] puts "I still need " + "to visit the " + "following cities:", cities - visited That fills the box in every direction. It's really hard to squeeze something like a URL in that space. For this reason and others, John and I favor the simplicity of the hello world snippet, where we still use the comments to get some fun information to the user. James Edward Gray II From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 20:59:39 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:59:39 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <20060825235139.GF75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <44EF609E.2070103@johnwlong.com> <44EF6F9F.5040302@gmail.com> <44EF72A3.7020009@johnwlong.com> <44EF7C14.9080601@gmail.com> <20060825235139.GF75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> Message-ID: <44EF9CFB.1040706@gmail.com> why the lucky stiff wrote: > On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 03:39:16PM -0700, James Britt wrote: > >>It isn't clear to me (nor is this a big deal) that this solves an actual >>user problem or need. > > > Well, libraries are generally considered Ruby's weak point. That we don't > have CPAN or that our libraries are shambles. We want to do all we can to > counterattack that prevailing notion. We want to demonstrate that we have a > wealth of libraries, useful and widespread, with an entire system for > distributing them and announcing them. Whoa, Ruby has that! Quite true, and a concise way to show the wealth of Ruby libraries would go a long way towards educating the public. Displaying the same set of libraries (either the actual top five, or some random set of five of the top 30) hides this diversity. When Dave Thomas was preparing the 2nd ed. of the pick-axe there was, I think, some discussion as to whether a lengthy, yet clearly incomplete, back section was a good thing. After getting my copy, I discovered that while each specific entry in the std lib ref was necessarily incomplete, as a whole it was remarkable because one could easily browse through it and discover forgotten on unknown treasures. Providing this sort of serendipity on ruby-lang.org would be good. A "Top X" is too much of a keyhole to expose the richness of Ruby. > > The presence of good libraries is probably amoung the top five reasons someone > picks a language, maybe? For some, it's first even. Regardless, it can break > the whole empire. Let's show off some libraries and let's keep talking about > how we can really drive the point, you know? Absolutely. A downside to having a new, custom description of a different library each [:week, :month, :season] is the reliance on someone's time and effort, but that personal touch may be quite the draw to have people come around to learn more about the "Project of the #{duration}". I'm a big fan of automating the mundane; the real trick is knowing when the mundane is the very wrong thing. James Britt From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 21:03:48 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:03:48 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <638BE351-437A-4D00-9607-14947C112890@grayproductions.net> References: <638BE351-437A-4D00-9607-14947C112890@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: <44EF9DF4.20101@gmail.com> James Edward Gray II wrote: > > I've added this one, since we all seemed to like it. > When I first glanced over the original post, and saw the list of city names, my head was filled with the song "Pop Muzik." Ah, 1979 ... James Britt From ng at johnwlong.com Fri Aug 25 23:16:51 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:16:51 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <2597AC2C-DD97-42F8-9374-E9148654D628@grayproductions.net> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <20060825205903.GE75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> <2597AC2C-DD97-42F8-9374-E9148654D628@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: <44EFBD23.5050809@johnwlong.com> James Edward Gray II wrote: > That fills the box in every direction. It's really hard to squeeze > something like a URL in that space. Here are two that might fit the bill. A better non-oo Hello World? # Hello World is trivial # in Ruby: puts "Hello World!" # It's also easy to work # with collections: [1, 3, 5].each do |i| puts i end # Everything in Ruby # is an object: puts -5.abs puts "abc".reverse One using blocks: # Ruby can do amazing # things with blocks: 5.times do puts "Ruby rocks!" end # A complex example: a = [1, 2, 3] total = a.inject(0) do |sum, i| sum + i end puts total #=> 6 Wow! I even used inject. I really like snippets that show several things and especially snippets that show a progression. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From james at grayproductions.net Fri Aug 25 23:32:18 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:32:18 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EFBD23.5050809@johnwlong.com> References: <44EF5030.6010100@johnwlong.com> <20060825205903.GE75627@lstsv-3264.layeredtech.com> <2597AC2C-DD97-42F8-9374-E9148654D628@grayproductions.net> <44EFBD23.5050809@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2006, at 10:16 PM, John W. Long wrote: > A better non-oo Hello World? I've already told John, but I'm partial to the current hello world with point by point comments. ;) > One using blocks: > > # Ruby can do amazing > # things with blocks: > 5.times do > puts "Ruby rocks!" > end > > # A complex example: > a = [1, 2, 3] > total = a.inject(0) do > |sum, i| > sum + i > end > puts total #=> 6 I like this one. I wrote a fibonacci snippet a while back, but VIT Core thought it was a bit complex: fib = Hash.new do |seq, i| if i < 2 seq[i] = i else seq[i] = seq[i - 2] + seq[i - 1] end end 0.upto(100) do |n| puts fib[n] end James Edward Gray II From evan at protest.net Fri Aug 25 15:22:22 2006 From: evan at protest.net (evan at protest.net) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:22:22 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <053B208B-079C-48FD-B7C7-AC4C79FD923B@protest.net> This conversation has devolved in to a discussion about what color we should paint the ruby bikeshed. The site is wonderful, set it free and make it live! Ok, back to the topic at hand: Why not just change it to someting like this: "Some Top Ruby Projects" Then make the list take randomly from the top 20 or 50... The idea is to give a little exposure and page rank to lesser known but good ruby projects. Or, take the latest news on projects from rubyforge and link to to each of those projects. Then it would be Recent Ruby Activity or something like that. -rabble On Aug 25, 2006, at 7:05 AM, James Britt wrote: > John W. Long wrote: > >> >> I'm trying to see what it would take to have this information >> automatically updated. > > > Nit: What user problem does this information solve? > > > (One issue I have with lists of what's popular is that they can be > re-enforcing, to the exclusion of other , maybe better, options.) > > I'd rather see more space made on the home page for a "Download Here" > widget thing than clutter the main page with RubyForge trivia. > > (Other nit: "Top Ruby Projects" is really "Most downloaded from the > rubyforge.org site". That probably equates to "most popular projects" > for most cases, but does nothing to account for anything that may be > hosted elsewhere.) > > > -- > James Britt > > http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation > http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - The Journal By & For Rubyists > http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff > http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss From james.britt at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 12:54:41 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:54:41 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: <053B208B-079C-48FD-B7C7-AC4C79FD923B@protest.net> References: <44EE2136.60401@johnwlong.com> <44EF0390.9000303@gmail.com> <053B208B-079C-48FD-B7C7-AC4C79FD923B@protest.net> Message-ID: <44F07CD1.7040505@gmail.com> evan at protest.net wrote: > This conversation has devolved in to a discussion about what color we > should paint the ruby bikeshed. Not really; it's, Why is there a bike shed? > The site is wonderful, set it free > and make it live! Sure. James Britt From hramrach at centrum.cz Mon Aug 28 10:42:41 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:42:41 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] text in the links section Message-ID: Hello As I have already mantioned (and afaict got no reply) there is quite a bit of text in the links menu on the right of the page that seems redundant, even somewhat annoying to me. I think that links could easily do without exclamation marks. It's fine to use one to make a particular link stnd out but it is too much to have one in the heading of each section. Generally all the expalnations in smaller text seem redundant to me, except perhaps the one for ruby core. All the other links should be pretty self-explanatory. Redundant text with exclamation marks and the term "success stories" makes the site look like marketing speak to me (especially since the design appers to favor cool look over usability). This makes me feel like I should either close the site or grind my teeth and prepare for hunting for bits of useful information through heaps babbling consisting almost exclusively of marketing buzzwords. I hope the site is better than the first impression. Thanks Michal From james at grayproductions.net Mon Aug 28 11:13:30 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:13:30 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] text in the links section In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019097D6-D2B0-4821-90EB-D387F0B4691D@grayproductions.net> On Aug 28, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote: > Hello > > As I have already mantioned (and afaict got no reply) Here's my opinionated response. ;) > I think that links could easily do without exclamation marks. It's > fine to use one to make a particular link stnd out but it is too much > to have one in the heading of each section. Exactly one link has an exclamation mark, and that is part of the site's name. I don't feel it would be right to change that. I'll assume you meant that the sidebar headers are bugging you with their exclamation marks. I really like the one on "it's easy!", because I think we to encourage people to give it a try. The one on "a new world!" can go for all I care. I favor putting an ellipsis there, if others are OK with that. > Generally all the expalnations in smaller text seem redundant to me, > except perhaps the one for ruby core. All the other links should be > pretty self-explanatory. Well, it would look pretty funny to only explain one link in the section, wouldn't it? Personally, I like them. > ...the term "success stories"... People are always asking who is using Ruby and I know the similar section on the Python site has been a big draw. We're not ashamed of Ruby so there's no good reason not to show it off, I say. James Edward Gray II From james at grayproductions.net Mon Aug 28 11:38:43 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:38:43 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] text in the links section In-Reply-To: <019097D6-D2B0-4821-90EB-D387F0B4691D@grayproductions.net> References: <019097D6-D2B0-4821-90EB-D387F0B4691D@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2006, at 10:13 AM, James Edward Gray II wrote: > The one on "a new world!" can go for all I care. I favor putting an > ellipsis there, if others are OK with that. I've made this change. James Edward Gray II From ng at johnwlong.com Mon Aug 28 13:33:16 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Mailing List Page Message-ID: <44F328DC.9050804@johnwlong.com> This is now functional: http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/ -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From ng at johnwlong.com Mon Aug 28 14:54:50 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:54:50 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F33BFA.6020206@johnwlong.com> Martin Ankerl wrote: > * I don't know why, but the logo is not always clickable In Opera it > works flawlessly, but in firefox and in KDE's browser there is a > problem. It seems to me that at exactly the same height as the search > box the logo is not clickable, above and below the link works. I have > no idea why... This is fixed now. Please verify. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 15:23:14 2006 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:23:14 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44F33BFA.6020206@johnwlong.com> References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <44F33BFA.6020206@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: > This is fixed now. Please verify. Nice, works for me in Firefox, konqueror, and Opera. -- Martin Ankerl | http://martin.ankerl.org From rsanheim at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 16:48:47 2006 From: rsanheim at gmail.com (Rob Sanheim) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:48:47 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <44F33BFA.6020206@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/28/06, Martin Ankerl wrote: > > This is fixed now. Please verify. > > Nice, works for me in Firefox, konqueror, and Opera. > > -- This is a bit nit-picky, but the logo still isn't entirely clickable, because the search box overlaps. So for the height of the search box across the entire logo, you can't click and you don't get the "hand" icon because you are actually hovering over a the search box. You can easily see how this is happening if you look at it in firebug. Verified this in Firefox 1.5 (mac) and Camino. - Rob -- http://www.robsanheim.com http://www.seekingalpha.com http://www.ajaxian.com From ng at johnwlong.com Mon Aug 28 18:13:02 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:13:02 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44EE045B.4000100@johnwlong.com> <44F33BFA.6020206@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F36A6E.5030308@johnwlong.com> Rob Sanheim wrote: > This is a bit nit-picky, but the logo still isn't entirely clickable, > because the search box overlaps. So for the height of the search box > across the entire logo, you can't click and you don't get the "hand" > icon because you are actually hovering over a the search box. You can > easily see how this is happening if you look at it in firebug. > Verified this in Firefox 1.5 (mac) and Camino. Really? Perhaps you have a cached version of the old stylesheet. Try again. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From ng at johnwlong.com Mon Aug 28 22:23:32 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:23:32 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F3A524.30006@johnwlong.com> Gavin Kistner wrote: > 2) I like that the Firefox website has a huge "DOWNLOAD NOW" button. The > most common activity for the site is really, really easy to find. Ruby's > homepage should, of course, be about more than downloading Ruby. > However, I suspect that the Download action is more common that the > current design emphasizes. My suggestion is to (somehow) make that > action more prominent than its current (near-hidden) location. Perhaps > as simple as a 'download' icon following the "Download Ruby" words. We've taken your suggestion: http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/ I'm not sure that I'm totally satisfied with the way it turned out (it tends to draw attention away from the other three boxes, but I agree with you that the download action should be more prominent. (I like that about the Firefox page as well.) -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From jim at weirichhouse.org Mon Aug 28 22:55:06 2006 From: jim at weirichhouse.org (Jim Weirich) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:55:06 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44F3A524.30006@johnwlong.com> References: <44F3A524.30006@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F3AC8A.2070806@weirichhouse.org> John W. Long wrote: > We've taken your suggestion: [re download button] > > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/ > > I'm not sure that I'm totally satisfied with the way it turned out (it > tends to draw attention away from the other three boxes, but I agree > with you that the download action should be more prominent. (I like that > about the Firefox page as well.) I like the new download button. But the download page itself seems a little bare. Suppose I am totally new to Ruby ... I see how to get source, and some windows binaries (and what's the difference between the windows binaries and the windows installer ... I think *I* know, but I'm pretty sure a newbie wouldn't). I think some description of the differences and then a pointer to installation instructions would be helpful. Also, there was a recent discussion of the best way to install on OSX (source, darwinports, etc). Some pointers for that might be nice. But, hey, guys! Outstanding work on the site. I can't wait until it is ready to go live. -- Jim Weirich From ng at johnwlong.com Mon Aug 28 22:59:43 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:59:43 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44F3AC8A.2070806@weirichhouse.org> References: <44F3A524.30006@johnwlong.com> <44F3AC8A.2070806@weirichhouse.org> Message-ID: <44F3AD9F.6000502@johnwlong.com> Jim Weirich wrote: > I like the new download button. But the download page itself seems a > little bare. Suppose I am totally new to Ruby ... I see how to get > source, and some windows binaries (and what's the difference between the > windows binaries and the windows installer ... I think *I* know, but I'm > pretty sure a newbie wouldn't). I think some description of the > differences and then a pointer to installation instructions would be > helpful. Also, there was a recent discussion of the best way to > install on OSX (source, darwinports, etc). Some pointers for that might > be nice. This is a good point. If someone's willing to pull together some text for this, we may be able to change the page before we put it live. Otherwise, it may need to come latter. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From gavin.kistner at anark.com Tue Aug 29 00:20:30 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:20:30 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested Message-ID: > We've taken your suggestion: > >http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/ > > I'm not sure that I'm totally satisfied with the way it turned > out (it tends to draw attention away from the other three boxes, > but I agree with you that the download action should be more > prominent. (I like that about the Firefox page as well.) Thanks for the on-going work. I agree that it both detracts from the other boxes, and at the same time is much nicer in its more prominent appearance. (And oh so lickable sexy, too. And full of raster goodness, at least at default font sizes. Danger for the accessibility of text-as-graphic, at least in principle, though.) My attempt to be helpful with a bit of design critique: I'm a little bothered that the new graphic has those two rounded corners, but the theme is not carried over to the headers of the other sections. It ties the button nicely to the code-snippet box, and in doing so makes the right side headers appear to be hacked-on bastard children. Further, the 'C' in Robin Williams' C.R.A.P. design principles (contrast, repetitition, alignment, position) is somewhat violated in the height of the headers compared to the height of the Download Ruby graphic. If you're going to make something different, make it DIFFERENT; if you make it almost the same it comes off looking inconsistent and muddled. Combining the two above, what if the headers for the sub-sections were given the upper-left rounding, and (through font size increase, padding increase, or button size decrease) made to be the same height as the Download Ruby button? From chiology at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 10:55:21 2006 From: chiology at gmail.com (Matt Todd) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:55:21 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> Nitpicking here, but, why put the parens around 'def initialize(name)' and 'Greeter.new("world")'? Though I haven't been privy to any of the discussions on the best way to install Ruby on a Mac (which is my primary platform), I've taken just a short amount of time to roughly cut a bit up into something that may be worthy of destroying into conformity. I hope it's something that you can use... h2. Ruby Source Code Installing from the source code is a great solution for when you are comfortable enough with your platform and perhaps need specific settings for your environment. It's also a good solution in the event that there are no other premade packages for your platform. * "Ruby 1.8.5":ftp://ftp.ruby-lang.org/pub/ruby/ruby-1.8.5.tar.gz Stable Version (_recommended_) h2. Ruby On Windows The Windows platform has several options for installing Ruby. The first option is simply installing the compiled binaries. The second option is to use the automated installer. If you're unsure about how to install Ruby, the automated installer may be the best option for you. * "Ruby 1.8.5 Binary":ftp://ftp.ruby-lang.org/pub/ruby/binaries/mswin32/ruby-1.8.5-i386-mswin32.zip Stable version (_recommended_) * "Ruby 1.9.0 Binary":ftp://ftp.ruby-lang.org/pub/ruby/binaries/mswin32/ruby-1.9.0-20060415-i386-mswin32.zip Developers version (_experimental_) * "Ruby 1.8.4 Installer":http://rubyforge.org/frs/download.php/11926/ruby184-20.exe Stable version (_recommended_) h2. Ruby On Linux Depending on the distribution you are using, there are several ways to install Ruby. The first option is simply to download the source code above and compile by hand. However, on some platforms, there are package management solutions that make installing Ruby extremely easy. On Debian, @apt-get@ provides an easy and elegant solution. * @apt-get install ruby1.8 irb1.8 rdoc1.8@ This also applies to Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and _____(?). _NOTES FOR LINUX HERE_ h2. Ruby On OS X There are a number of options on the Macinstosh OS X platform for installing the latest version of Ruby. "DarwinPorts":http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/ and "The Fink Project":http://fink.sourceforge.net/, two very good package management solutions, provide an easy mechanism for downlowding and installing Ruby. On DarwinPorts, you can install Ruby with... * @port install ruby@ Fink has a graphical interface (using Fink Commander) for installing Ruby. And, since OS X is based on Unix, downloading and installing from the source found above is just as easy and effective as the other solutions. For a detailed look at installing Ruby (and Rails), Dan Benjamin's excellent article "Building Ruby, Rails, LightTPD, and MySQL on Tiger" will get you up and running very quickly. Cheers! M.T. From dblack at wobblini.net Tue Aug 29 11:02:49 2006 From: dblack at wobblini.net (dblack at wobblini.net) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> References: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi -- On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Matt Todd wrote: > Nitpicking here, but, why put the parens around 'def initialize(name)' > and 'Greeter.new("world")'? To demonstrate traditional Ruby style, I imagine, particularly for method definitions. David -- David A. Black | dblack at wobblini.net Author of "Ruby for Rails" [1] | Ruby/Rails training & consultancy [3] DABlog (DAB's Weblog) [2] | Co-director, Ruby Central, Inc. [4] [1] http://www.manning.com/black | [3] http://www.rubypowerandlight.com [2] http://dablog.rubypal.com | [4] http://www.rubycentral.org From james at grayproductions.net Tue Aug 29 11:04:07 2006 From: james at grayproductions.net (James Edward Gray II) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:04:07 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> References: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3DCEBDC5-CC52-4DD4-97AA-0D6E98093EEF@grayproductions.net> On Aug 29, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Matt Todd wrote: > Nitpicking here, but, why put the parens around 'def initialize(name)' > and 'Greeter.new("world")'? My opinion is that method arguments generally belong in parentheses. I hate to encourage new users to leave them off until they begin running into problems. I wrote more about this here: http://blog.grayproductions.net/articles/2006/06/13/do-i-need-these- parenthese James Edward Gray II From rsanheim at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 11:16:12 2006 From: rsanheim at gmail.com (Rob Sanheim) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:16:12 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> References: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Matt Todd wrote: > Nitpicking here, but, why put the parens around 'def initialize(name)' [snip] It should probably be noted for Ruby on the Mac that: * Ruby 1.8.2 comes pre installed in on Tiger, but its broken - this could be confusing for a newbie who just types "ruby" in terminal and sees that they have it already * Ruby 1.8.4 along with Rails should be preinstalled with the next release of Mac OS X, Leopard (in beta right now). More info here: http://weblog.rubyonrails.org/2006/8/7/ruby-on-rails-will-ship-with-os-x-10-5-leopard - hopefully things will "just work" right out of the box. - Rob -- http://www.robsanheim.com http://www.seekingalpha.com http://www.ajaxian.com From ng at johnwlong.com Tue Aug 29 11:37:07 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:37:07 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F45F23.3030503@johnwlong.com> Gavin Kistner wrote: > I'm a little bothered that the new graphic has those two rounded > corners, but the theme is not carried over to the headers of the other > sections. It ties the button nicely to the code-snippet box, and in > doing so makes the right side headers appear to be hacked-on bastard > children. The language is a bit strong, but I can see what you mean. > Further, the 'C' in Robin Williams' C.R.A.P. design principles > (contrast, repetitition, alignment, position) is somewhat violated in > the height of the headers compared to the height of the Download Ruby > graphic. If you're going to make something different, make it DIFFERENT; > if you make it almost the same it comes off looking inconsistent and > muddled. I am a huge fan of Robin Williams' the Non-Designer's Design Book. > Combining the two above, what if the headers for the sub-sections were > given the upper-left rounding, and (through font size increase, padding > increase, or button size decrease) made to be the same height as the > Download Ruby button? But that would associate the boxes too closely with the download button. The reason for the coloring *and* rounded corners is that I was trying to make it stand out from *and* blend with the objects around it. The tension between these too goals is somewhat frustrating. Part of the problem with adding something this significant to the design this late in the game is that it often ends up looking "tacked on" (as it does in this case). The original focus of the design was to showcase Ruby, then to give people of various skill levels places to go (the 3 boxes on the side), and finally to highlight recent news, events, etc... When we added the download button the tight pyramid focus of the design shifted. Instead of having one main point, we had two. The emphasis on downloading Ruby is now competing with our main point which was to tell people about Ruby. This almost bothers me enough to pull the download button completely. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From jim at weirichhouse.org Tue Aug 29 11:58:52 2006 From: jim at weirichhouse.org (Jim Weirich) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> References: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F4643C.5000202@weirichhouse.org> Matt Todd wrote: > [...] I've taken > just a short amount of time to roughly cut a bit up into something > that may be worthy of destroying into conformity. I hope it's > something that you can use... Look good ... some comments below ... > h2. Ruby On Windows > > The Windows platform has several options for installing Ruby. The > first option is simply installing the compiled binaries. The second > option is to use the automated installer. If you're unsure about how > to install Ruby, the automated installer may be the best option for > you. I believe the one click installer installs more than a base Ruby installation. E.g. it includes things like RubyGems and Rake (and more). This is probably worth mentioning. > h2. Ruby On Linux > > Depending on the distribution you are using, there are several ways to > install Ruby. The first option is simply to download the source code > above and compile by hand. However, on some platforms, there are > package management solutions that make installing Ruby extremely easy. > > On Debian, @apt-get@ provides an easy and elegant solution. > > * @apt-get install ruby1.8 irb1.8 rdoc1.8@ Although I use Debian, I generally install Ruby from source. However, I do know that there is a problem in that the obvious install for Ruby misses some major pieces of functionality. I see you included irb and rdoc ... is there anything else the Debian/Unbuntu/whatever user should also get? -- Jim Weirich From gavin.kistner at anark.com Tue Aug 29 12:11:16 2006 From: gavin.kistner at anark.com (Gavin Kistner) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:11:16 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested Message-ID: > > Combining the two above, what if the headers for the sub-sections were > > given the upper-left rounding, and (through font size increase, padding > > increase, or button size decrease) made to be the same height as the > > Download Ruby button? > > But that would associate the boxes too closely with the download button. Damn, I was hoping no one would notice that flaw in my logic. :) Aesthetics over functionality is, in fact, what I was suggesting. > Part of the problem with adding something this significant to the design > this late in the game is that it often ends up looking "tacked on" (as > it does in this case). > > The original focus of the design was to showcase Ruby, then to give > people of various skill levels places to go (the 3 boxes on the side), > and finally to highlight recent news, events, etc... When we added the > download button the tight pyramid focus of the design shifted. Instead > of having one main point, we had two. The emphasis on downloading Ruby > is now competing with our main point which was to tell people about > Ruby. This almost bothers me enough to pull the download button > completely. I'm fine with that, and I (personally) don't feel that this issue is strong enough (either way) to justify holding up any sort of deployment. IF bandwidth is available for further design attempts, what about moving the download back to its original (in-header) location, and see if it can be slightly modified in that location to appear stronger? Move it to the top of the list (despite the fact that the logical progression for the 100% newb is to play with _why's web page first)? Add the download icon inline after the text? If people have the energy, perhaps we could further discuss (for a future revision to the design) what the focus of the site truly needs to be. What is the distribution of experience with Ruby of the visitors? Experience with programming? Should the site cater to potential programmers (evangelization), or current ruby programmers (support/news)? Are we trying to convince pointy-haired bosses that Ruby is a stable, polished, reasonable choice? From ng at johnwlong.com Tue Aug 29 13:09:52 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:09:52 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> Gavin Kistner wrote: > IF bandwidth is available for further design attempts, what about moving > the download back to its original (in-header) location, and see if it > can be slightly modified in that location to appear stronger? Move it to > the top of the list (despite the fact that the logical progression for > the 100% newb is to play with _why's web page first)? Add the download > icon inline after the text? Vit-core actually looked a two other variations before rejecting them both for the current approach. Both can be seen in this comp: http://rubyidentity.org/ruby-lang.org/file/ruby-lang.org/trunk/images/download3.png?format=raw One of them (the approach in the sidebar) is just what you suggest. It is, in my opinion the least evasive of the three options. We rejected the button below the about paragraph because we felt it hijacked that part of the design. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From martindemello at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 13:15:51 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:45:51 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> References: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, John W. Long wrote: > > Vit-core actually looked a two other variations before rejecting them > both for the current approach. Both can be seen in this comp: > http://rubyidentity.org/ruby-lang.org/file/ruby-lang.org/trunk/images/download3.png?format=raw > > One of them (the approach in the sidebar) is just what you suggest. It > is, in my opinion the least evasive of the three options. I really like that one. It does the best job of both harmonising with the site and standing out. martin From hramrach at centrum.cz Tue Aug 29 13:48:33 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:48:33 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> References: <2a8d4a710608290755p4e42bb23w76160a29cb30d881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Matt Todd wrote: > h2. Ruby On OS X > > There are a number of options on the Macinstosh OS X platform for > installing the latest version of Ruby. > "DarwinPorts":http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/ and "The Fink > Project":http://fink.sourceforge.net/, two very good package > management solutions, provide an easy mechanism for downlowding and > installing Ruby. > > On DarwinPorts, you can install Ruby with... > > * @port install ruby@ > > Fink has a graphical interface (using Fink Commander) for installing Ruby. Or you can use apt like on Debian :) > > And, since OS X is based on Unix, downloading and installing from the > source found above is just as easy and effective as the other UNIX-like systems. If OS X had the environ pointer. In other words, it won't compile without patches right now. > > For a detailed look at installing Ruby (and Rails), Dan Benjamin's > excellent article "Building Ruby, Rails, LightTPD, and MySQL on Tiger" > will get you up and running very quickly. > > > > Cheers! > > M.T. > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > From hramrach at centrum.cz Tue Aug 29 14:00:43 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:00:43 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Martin DeMello wrote: > On 8/29/06, John W. Long wrote: > > > > Vit-core actually looked a two other variations before rejecting them > > both for the current approach. Both can be seen in this comp: > > http://rubyidentity.org/ruby-lang.org/file/ruby-lang.org/trunk/images/download3.png?format=raw > > > > One of them (the approach in the sidebar) is just what you suggest. It > > is, in my opinion the least evasive of the three options. > > I really like that one. It does the best job of both harmonising with > the site and standing out. > Perhaps make the corners all rectangular to also harmonize with the rest of the links? I would think the arrow icon stands out enough. I also cannot currently download when I do not load images. Nor do I see the link to the main page which goes through the logo. Hint: use alternative text for images. It is also neened for non-visual browsers. Thanks Michal From ng at johnwlong.com Tue Aug 29 14:40:05 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:40:05 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F48A05.4010705@johnwlong.com> Michal Suchanek wrote: > I also cannot currently download when I do not load images. Nor do I > see the link to the main page which goes through the logo. Hint: use > alternative text for images. It is also neened for non-visual > browsers. Hint: both images do. The title attribute is set to "". -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From hramrach at centrum.cz Tue Aug 29 16:12:16 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:12:16 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44F48A05.4010705@johnwlong.com> References: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> <44F48A05.4010705@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, John W. Long wrote: > Michal Suchanek wrote: > > I also cannot currently download when I do not load images. Nor do I > > see the link to the main page which goes through the logo. Hint: use > > alternative text for images. It is also neened for non-visual > > browsers. > > Hint: both images do. The title attribute is set to "". Well, I cannot see either of them when I disable images which is what a person cursed with slow connection would probably do. I can at least see the logo when I select all the stuff on the page. But the download button is in the source but I cannot see it on the page at all. I am using Firefox 1.5.0.1 on GNU/Linux. Maybe this one is just broken. Thanks Michal From rsanheim at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 16:15:47 2006 From: rsanheim at gmail.com (Rob Sanheim) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:15:47 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> <44F48A05.4010705@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Michal Suchanek wrote: > On 8/29/06, John W. Long wrote: > > Michal Suchanek wrote: > > > I also cannot currently download when I do not load images. Nor do I > > > see the link to the main page which goes through the logo. Hint: use > > > alternative text for images. It is also neened for non-visual > > > browsers. > > > > Hint: both images do. The title attribute is set to "". > > Well, I cannot see either of them when I disable images which is what > a person cursed with slow connection would probably do. > > I can at least see the logo when I select all the stuff on the page. > > But the download button is in the source but I cannot see it on the page at all. > > I am using Firefox 1.5.0.1 on GNU/Linux. > > Maybe this one is just broken. > > Thanks > > Michal I also saw this on FF for mac, so it maybe allows the title attribute to override alt text? I loaded up lynx and saw the alt text fine... - Rob From jim at weirichhouse.org Tue Aug 29 16:16:52 2006 From: jim at weirichhouse.org (Jim Weirich) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:16:52 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: References: <44F474E0.6090503@johnwlong.com> <44F48A05.4010705@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F4A0B4.1090506@weirichhouse.org> Michal Suchanek wrote: > Well, I cannot see either of them when I disable images which is what > a person cursed with slow connection would probably do. Both are there (Firefox 1.0.5.6/Mac OSX), but the alt text is rendered white on white for the logo and purple on blue for the download (or red on blue when you hover over download). -- Jim Weirich From hramrach at centrum.cz Wed Aug 30 04:02:42 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:02:42 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Ruby-Lang Redesign Feedback Requested In-Reply-To: <44F3AD9F.6000502@johnwlong.com> References: <44F3A524.30006@johnwlong.com> <44F3AC8A.2070806@weirichhouse.org> <44F3AD9F.6000502@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, John W. Long wrote: > Jim Weirich wrote: > > I like the new download button. But the download page itself seems a > > little bare. Suppose I am totally new to Ruby ... I see how to get > > source, and some windows binaries (and what's the difference between the > > windows binaries and the windows installer ... I think *I* know, but I'm > > pretty sure a newbie wouldn't). I think some description of the > > differences and then a pointer to installation instructions would be > > helpful. Also, there was a recent discussion of the best way to > > install on OSX (source, darwinports, etc). Some pointers for that might > > be nice. > > This is a good point. If someone's willing to pull together some text > for this, we may be able to change the page before we put it live. > Otherwise, it may need to come latter. > More bits about downloads: There is a link 'Libraries' on the main page. Not all stuff in RAA and on RubyForge can be intuitevely seen as a library. When there was a RAA link on the old page it was obvious. An application archive. But now if I was searching for a framework or a finished program (as opposed to a library) I would not know where to look. Second, the link to the page that is now labeled "libraries" should be also from the download page. Thanks Michal From hramrach at centrum.cz Wed Aug 30 11:06:11 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:06:11 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] text in the links section In-Reply-To: <019097D6-D2B0-4821-90EB-D387F0B4691D@grayproductions.net> References: <019097D6-D2B0-4821-90EB-D387F0B4691D@grayproductions.net> Message-ID: On 8/28/06, James Edward Gray II wrote: > On Aug 28, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote: > > > Hello > > > > As I have already mantioned (and afaict got no reply) > > Here's my opinionated response. ;) > > > I think that links could easily do without exclamation marks. It's > > fine to use one to make a particular link stnd out but it is too much > > to have one in the heading of each section. > > Exactly one link has an exclamation mark, and that is part of the > site's name. I don't feel it would be right to change that. > > I'll assume you meant that the sidebar headers are bugging you with > their exclamation marks. I really like the one on "it's easy!", > because I think we to encourage people to give it a try. I guess this should be demonstrated well enough by the "Try ruby!" site :) > > The one on "a new world!" can go for all I care. I favor putting an > ellipsis there, if others are OK with that. > > > Generally all the expalnations in smaller text seem redundant to me, > > except perhaps the one for ruby core. All the other links should be > > pretty self-explanatory. > > Well, it would look pretty funny to only explain one link in the > section, wouldn't it? Personally, I like them. > > > ...the term "success stories"... > > People are always asking who is using Ruby and I know the similar > section on the Python site has been a big draw. We're not ashamed of > Ruby so there's no good reason not to show it off, I say. > Then make it "Wha't s ruby used for" or "Who uses ruby". I do not say I dislike the section. I dislike the title. Thanks Michal From hramrach at centrum.cz Wed Aug 30 11:18:29 2006 From: hramrach at centrum.cz (Michal Suchanek) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:18:29 +0200 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Mailing List Page In-Reply-To: <44F328DC.9050804@johnwlong.com> References: <44F328DC.9050804@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 8/28/06, John W. Long wrote: > This is now functional: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/ > Nice. However, there is ML information on the Community page as well. And neither is subset of the other :-S Oh, and the form does not work. I get a Rails error. Should it? Thanks Michal From ng at johnwlong.com Wed Aug 30 11:43:05 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:43:05 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Mailing List Page In-Reply-To: References: <44F328DC.9050804@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F5B209.60803@johnwlong.com> Michal Suchanek wrote: > Oh, and the form does not work. I get a Rails error. Should it? Something broke. I'm looking into it... -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com http://radiantcms.org From ng at johnwlong.com Wed Aug 30 23:44:26 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:44:26 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Top Ruby Projects algorithm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F65B1A.6070508@johnwlong.com> This is now implemented: http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/ http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/libraries/top-projects/ From the top 30 downloads on RubyForge it choses 5 for the small list. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 31 17:39:48 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:39:48 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page Message-ID: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> In the interest of improving the Community section, I rewrote the User Groups page today: http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/user-groups/ Suggestions? -- John From martindemello at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 17:46:18 2006 From: martindemello at gmail.com (Martin DeMello) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:16:18 +0530 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On 9/1/06, John W. Long wrote: > In the interest of improving the Community section, I rewrote the User > Groups page today: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/user-groups/ > > Suggestions? Looks good! One mistake: "They are a great place increase your skills and network with other programmers. " -- missing a "to" before "increase" Also, will the master list of groups eventually be hosted under ruby-lang.org? martin From pat.eyler at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 17:47:25 2006 From: pat.eyler at gmail.com (pat eyler) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:47:25 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <6fd0654b0608311447l52e0a972r4bd4c0f88a222840@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, John W. Long wrote: > In the interest of improving the Community section, I rewrote the User > Groups page today: > > http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/community/user-groups/ > > Suggestions? Several. ;^) 1) I like Ruby Brigades as a term, not everyone does, but it might be good to mention the term since a lot of Ruby groups call themselves brigades. 2) hacking nights are gatherings to work on code. code fests are more of a special occassion, often gathering attendees from multiple Ruby brigades. 3) you might want to point out that most Ruby brigades/groups at least dabble in Rails too. I'd hate for Railz0rs to go off and start their own group when there's a perfectly good .rb in town. (I've spent a year fighting this tendency on mailing lists already.) > > -- > John > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > -- thanks, -pate ------------------------- http://on-ruby.blogspot.com From pat.eyler at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 17:49:07 2006 From: pat.eyler at gmail.com (pat eyler) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:49:07 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <6fd0654b0608311449h3db375c1j83566ef1e02294fb@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, Martin DeMello wrote: > Also, will the master list of groups eventually be hosted under ruby-lang.org? Please!?! I understand why we have three different places to look (I don't agree, and don't really like it), but it sure make life harder. > > martin > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > -- thanks, -pate ------------------------- http://on-ruby.blogspot.com From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 31 17:59:22 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:59:22 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> Martin DeMello wrote: > "They are a great place increase your skills and network with other > programmers. " -- missing a "to" before "increase" Fixed. > Also, will the master list of groups eventually be hosted under ruby-lang.org? Dunno. I would love to see a groups.ruby-lang.org. If only I had more free time. :-) -- John Long http://wisheartdesign.com From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 31 18:10:14 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:10:14 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <6fd0654b0608311447l52e0a972r4bd4c0f88a222840@mail.gmail.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <6fd0654b0608311447l52e0a972r4bd4c0f88a222840@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F75E46.9060800@johnwlong.com> pat eyler wrote: > 1) I like Ruby Brigades as a term, not everyone does, but it might be > good to mention the term since a lot of Ruby groups call themselves > brigades. This is certainly true, but I haven't seen the term used widely outside of the Ruby community. If it helps I did mention the term while talking about the mailing list. > 2) hacking nights are gatherings to work on code. code fests are more > of a special occassion, often gathering attendees from multiple Ruby > brigades. Ok, I've changed it. > 3) you might want to point out that most Ruby brigades/groups at least > dabble in Rails too. I'd hate for Railz0rs to go off and start their own > group when there's a perfectly good .rb in town. (I've spent a year > fighting this tendency on mailing lists already.) I did not deal with Rails specifically, but I did try to deal with this some in the last paragraph: If you are interested in forming your own group, be sure to find out if there is already a Ruby user group in your area. Larger meetings are usually much more fun, so starting your own group may not be the best option if there is already one nearby. I don't think we can adequately express the needs of every sub-culture on this page. -- John From pat.eyler at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 18:14:12 2006 From: pat.eyler at gmail.com (pat eyler) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:14:12 -0600 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F75E46.9060800@johnwlong.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <6fd0654b0608311447l52e0a972r4bd4c0f88a222840@mail.gmail.com> <44F75E46.9060800@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <6fd0654b0608311514q273b05aekba031df589d27ae3@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, John W. Long wrote: > pat eyler wrote: > > 1) I like Ruby Brigades as a term, not everyone does, but it might be > > good to mention the term since a lot of Ruby groups call themselves > > brigades. > > This is certainly true, but I haven't seen the term used widely outside > of the Ruby community. I was more thinking of parellel usage. Which might help explain it to newcomers to the community. > If it helps I did mention the term while talking > about the mailing list. I did notice, thanks. However, there's no clear link from the use there to the fact that the list is about Ruby groups of any naming preference. > > > 2) hacking nights are gatherings to work on code. code fests are more > > of a special occassion, often gathering attendees from multiple Ruby > > brigades. > > Ok, I've changed it. > > > 3) you might want to point out that most Ruby brigades/groups at least > > dabble in Rails too. I'd hate for Railz0rs to go off and start their own > > group when there's a perfectly good .rb in town. (I've spent a year > > fighting this tendency on mailing lists already.) > > I did not deal with Rails specifically, but I did try to deal with this > some in the last paragraph: > Yeah, I guess it is there implicitly. > If you are interested in forming your own group, be sure to find > out if there is already a Ruby user group in your area. Larger > meetings are usually much more fun, so starting your own group may > not be the best option if there is already one nearby. > > I don't think we can adequately express the needs of every sub-culture > on this page. > True, but Rails is a pretty big sub-culture. ;^) > -- > John > > _______________________________________________ > vit-discuss mailing list > vit-discuss at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/vit-discuss > -- thanks, -pate ------------------------- http://on-ruby.blogspot.com From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 18:55:03 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:55:03 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> John W. Long wrote: > Martin DeMello wrote: > >>"They are a great place increase your skills and network with other >>programmers. " -- missing a "to" before "increase" > > > Fixed. > > >>Also, will the master list of groups eventually be hosted under ruby-lang.org? > > > Dunno. I would love to see a groups.ruby-lang.org. If only I had more > free time. :-) Centralization is fragile. -- James Britt http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - The Journal By & For Rubyists http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 31 19:07:40 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:07:40 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F76BBC.5090505@johnwlong.com> James Britt wrote: > Centralization is fragile. But delightful from the User's perspective. :-) -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 19:08:27 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:08:27 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <6fd0654b0608311447l52e0a972r4bd4c0f88a222840@mail.gmail.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <6fd0654b0608311447l52e0a972r4bd4c0f88a222840@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F76BEB.1070701@gmail.com> pat eyler wrote: > 3) you might want to point out that most Ruby brigades/groups at least > dabble in Rails too. I'd hate for Railz0rs to go off and start their own > group when there's a perfectly good .rb in town. (I've spent a year > fighting this tendency on mailing lists already.) I started (or re-started) the Phoenix Ruby Users Group last year, and attendance was a mix of general Ruby hackers with decent programming experience, and Rails-centric coders who tended more towards One Big PHP File coding skills. The latter were, I think, the majority. Someone went and started a Rails group (motivated in part, I think, by the way-north meeting place selected for the Ruby group), and while I was concerned that the Ruby group would return to the "six guys who hang out" format, so far it seems that the same people (modulo travel restraints) attend both meetings. So we have two Ruby meetings each month, in different sections of the Valley, with ~25 people each time. The nice thing is now I feel far less compelled to cover Rails stuff at the Ruby meeting, so overall I think this is working out better for all involved since there's more variety for those who want it. (I like the separation, both in groups and in lists, because app-specific discussions most often devolve into API quirks and trivia, as opposed to Ruby coding itself.) -- James Britt From chiology at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 19:52:55 2006 From: chiology at gmail.com (Matt Todd) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:52:55 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2a8d4a710608311652g3056f84dw40e18684211c6c40@mail.gmail.com> [At the top of the page:] "In the programming community, user groups form support networks for people interested in a certain topics." That last -s on topic shouldn't be there. That's a minor edit. I might suggest a general rewording of that first paragraph. Perhaps this would be an option: The programming community thrives on interacting with each other, and user groups form a substantial part of that interaction. User groups form support networks for people interested or experienced in, generally focused on particular topics. They create a great place to increase skill and network with other programmers, as well as providing for a great social medium. User groups are informal and organic, their structure varying from group to group and their rules and schedules molding to fit the needs of the group. M.T. From chiology at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 19:58:45 2006 From: chiology at gmail.com (Matt Todd) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:58:45 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F76BBC.5090505@johnwlong.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> <44F76BBC.5090505@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <2a8d4a710608311658o482ea491y8f73f13c6d2f4432@mail.gmail.com> > James Britt wrote: > > Centralization is fragile. > > But delightful from the User's perspective. :-) Perhaps a solution includes numerous sources to pull from but a single place to display? Then again, that requires a uniformity in the data, as well as access to the raw data (without needing screen scrapers). M.T. From chiology at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 20:01:36 2006 From: chiology at gmail.com (Matt Todd) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:01:36 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Mailing List Page In-Reply-To: <44F5B209.60803@johnwlong.com> References: <44F328DC.9050804@johnwlong.com> <44F5B209.60803@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <2a8d4a710608311701g5bbc3e71g5ddf088ce5df2543@mail.gmail.com> I believe it might be a good idea to hyphenate "English speaking", since it is a single term in the case of the first paragraph. And though "Subscribe or Unsubscribe" is very nice and straightforward, it's a bit repetitive. Perhaps we could "Manage Subscriptions" instead? M.T. From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Aug 31 20:38:20 2006 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:38:20 -0400 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608311652g3056f84dw40e18684211c6c40@mail.gmail.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> <2a8d4a710608311652g3056f84dw40e18684211c6c40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F780FC.2060308@johnwlong.com> Matt Todd wrote: > [At the top of the page:] "In the programming community, user groups > form support networks for people interested in a certain topics." That > last -s on topic shouldn't be there. Or remove the "a". Good eyes. :-) > That's a minor edit. I might suggest a general rewording of that first > paragraph. Perhaps this would be an option... I think I'll stay with what I have. Thanks. -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 21:34:27 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:34:27 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <44F76BBC.5090505@johnwlong.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> <44F76BBC.5090505@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <44F78E23.3080209@gmail.com> John W. Long wrote: > James Britt wrote: > >>Centralization is fragile. > > > But delightful from the User's perspective. :-) Until things break. Its the Web; centralization should not be an issue. James From james.britt at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 21:36:34 2006 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:36:34 -0700 Subject: [Vit-discuss] User Groups Page In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608311658o482ea491y8f73f13c6d2f4432@mail.gmail.com> References: <44F75724.4040402@johnwlong.com> <44F75BBA.40101@johnwlong.com> <44F768C7.9000901@gmail.com> <44F76BBC.5090505@johnwlong.com> <2a8d4a710608311658o482ea491y8f73f13c6d2f4432@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F78EA2.3000104@gmail.com> Matt Todd wrote: >>James Britt wrote: >> >>>Centralization is fragile. >> >>But delightful from the User's perspective. :-) > > > Perhaps a solution includes numerous sources to pull from but a single > place to display? That's one approach, and probably the best first choice > > Then again, that requires a uniformity in the data, as well as access > to the raw data (without needing screen scrapers). RSS or Atom. But this is a matter for a whole other discussion. :) James Britt From curt.hibbs at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 23:30:41 2006 From: curt.hibbs at gmail.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Mailing List Page In-Reply-To: <2a8d4a710608311701g5bbc3e71g5ddf088ce5df2543@mail.gmail.com> References: <44F328DC.9050804@johnwlong.com> <44F5B209.60803@johnwlong.com> <2a8d4a710608311701g5bbc3e71g5ddf088ce5df2543@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31d15f490608312030k7e990ec9s84376e5b16e86f4b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, Matt Todd wrote: > > I believe it might be a good idea to hyphenate "English speaking", > since it is a single term in the case of the first paragraph. > > And though "Subscribe or Unsubscribe" is very nice and > straightforward, it's a bit repetitive. Perhaps we could "Manage > Subscriptions" instead? > I prefer the straightforward... its what people will be looking for when those are the actions they wish to perform. 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